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  • First sonic review

    OK. I'd like to throw out my 2 cents on my initial impressions of the VSL now that I've had a few pieces to try and throw things into. Granted, it's been but a few, and I've been working it for only a few weeks.

    In general - it's very good, but it's not the best-all-around. Do I feel like I got my moneys worth? Can't really say just yet, but as of now, just barely.

    When listening to the brass and comparing it to other libraries, I feel like VSL has a good balance of wet/dry, but the raspiness/"hardness" really takes me off guard sometimes. Maybe it's my keyboard, but the difference between f and ff (or ff and fff) is quite a big difference. I have to be careful, and sometimes I just can't find the right dynamic quickly.

    The percussion and the strings fall into a similar situation; the *reality* is there, and it's so clear it almost makes you have to use EQ and compression to make it fit together in a mix. Example: thought the crash cymbals certainly sound real, I tended to go toward Siedlaczek's because they were thinner - they did the job they needed to do on the *mix*, which is just add a bright "whoosh". VSL's certainly were real, but seemed too "thick" or "heavy" for the mix I was trying to fit them in. Maybe my mix was funky, but I don't think so.

    The strings: I've only had experience with the basses so far, and I'm a sucker for layering sample sets anyway, but I find the same situation here. It's got the best of a bit of everything, but nothing to make it obvious... let me put it this way: when I choose a sample library to use, it's like choosing a microphone. Some sounds will work with certain instruments or certain sources, but they each have unique and valuable characteristics. I'd combine an SM57 with a Royer ribbon mic to get the benefits of both, or just use one to get a sort of sound I'm looking for. VSL is like the AKG414 of sample sets. Clear, simple (in a way), generic, well presented, etc. But honestly I use the AKG414 less than other mics because I think of *character* first. Dare I call it "flat"? Such a horrible term.

    Maybe I should think of VSL as the _basic_ library, and others combine with *it*. Granted, NO other library comes close to the scope and control, perhaps Siedlaczek for articulations only - I can't wait for the performance set and the pro editions.

    Let me ask this: should I also be thinking in terms of EQ and compression on this stuff? I mean, as I've been learning it, the best sample libraries are the ones you don't have to do anything to to make a piece and mix really sing. Are these samples so realistic that I should *expect* to in order to have character? Is reverb something that should be expected to help this out as well?

    This library is so big, and it takes many months to learn even a moderate sized one - I know I've got a lot to discover here, but I thought I'd throw out first impressions. Anybody else hear what I'm hearing?

  • Re: EQ and Compression -

    We discussed this already quite a bit in the PostPro-Forum of this site; you may take a glance at these threads:

    http://235.deatech.at/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=63

    http://235.deatech.at/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=361

    Hope this is answering some of your questions, especially the "The best sample libraries are the ones you don't have to do anything to to make a piece and mix really sing. "-part ... ;-]

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Quote fron sonic review

    <Granted, it's been but a few, and I've been working it for only a few weeks>


    How many weeks? As far as I am informed VSL is only delivered to customers
    Since mid of January.

    <In general - it's very good, but it's not the best-all-around.>

    Please let us know which ones – from the one own -you consider as better

    <When listening to the brass and comparing it to other libraries, I feel like VSL has a good balance of wet/dry, but the raspiness/"hardness" really takes me off guard sometimes. Maybe it's my keyboard, but the difference between f and ff (or ff and fff) is quite a big difference. I have to be careful, and sometimes I just can't find the right dynamic quickly.>

    Are you really sure about this???? I did compare, for example the solo trumpet from Siedlazcek and the one from VSL playing the same solo from a classical repertoire piece. For my ears there is a world of difference in favour of VSL and -sorry if I mention this- I did play the piece as a performer –among others- with the Vienna and the Berlin Philharmonic.

    IMHO, the only, published, library which is possible to compare to VSL is Garritan Strings.

    I do not want to be polemic, but I felt that I had to defend the makers of VSL, who achieve something I had never believed possible, and which is for sure also a big money investment and a big risk, from, IMO, such inadequate critic.

    Sampleaddict

  • quick responses to my responses:

    <How many weeks? As far as I am informed VSL is only delivered to customers
    Since mid of January.>

    I got our copy within the first full week of January. I can't remember the exact date, but I do remember it being early on, before I started a long session thing - certainly between Jan 3 and Jan 10... it had been pre-ordered. Don't know if that makes a difference.

    <Please let us know which ones – from the one own -you consider as better>

    Well, I fell in love with the Miroslav stuff as soon as I heard it and tried it (I don't own it yet, still saving up), it's extremely pretty. It's in bits and pieces, tho, hard to organize. Siedlaczek's stuff (which I do own) is the best bang for the buck. Lots of articulations, good woodwinds and brass, etc. I don't doubt VSLs performance vs Siedlaczek would be better, though. After just playing a bit with the Dan Dean Brass, I loved that as well. I don't really find myself fond of the Garritans (again, I don't own Dan Dean or Garritan yet, and at this point I don't expect to - bang-to-buck ratio is not the best) - I feel the Garritans are too "direct".

    I could also be a picky bastard, and I could also not know what I'm listening for. I completely admit to that. But I am learning and I am getting better.

    <IMHO, the only, published, library which is possible to compare to VSL is Garritan Strings. I do not want to be polemic, but I felt that I had to defend the makers of VSL, who achieve something I had never believed possible, and which is for sure also a big money investment and a big risk, from, IMO, such inadequate critic>

    I don't think the Garritans compare at all! Just because they're both HUGE libraries - I don't go for range of articulations and layers (first, anyway) - I go for immediate tones and space that I hear. Hell, that's what the *audience* hears! They could give a crap about staccato or marcato or mezzo piano.

    Hey, no need to defend! I love the fact that I even have ACCESS much less OWN VSL. It's the center of my sampling universe now! I don't doubt the achievements - they are great, and I'm very much looking forward to more performance utilities and sounds from these guys, don't get me wrong. I just wanted to see if anybody else heard the same things I did...

    and thanx for those post-pro links. i will check them out now.

    more discussion please? this is great.
    -ev

  • Very interesting thread.

    For a good few year I've relied on Miroslav: GREAT samples but leaving out many articulations and poor or rather non existent manuals and terrible CD inlays and descriptions, they don't even name the volumes on a ROM, very lazy for $3,000. Sziedlacek: Very usable library all round. Great variety of articulation, perhaps missing a bit of warmth especially in string sections. Can't comment on Dan Dan but heard the "Mars" brass demo and sorry but it seems a bad piece of programming / mixing so didn't pursue at all.
    Regarding the brass comment this is interesting as I felt most libraries lack any difference between f and ff. Perhaps this is a personal thing for everyone but I would like to be able to HEAR the difference between f and ff and there is a big one not just in volume but timbre also.

    Just my 2 cents!

  • Dan Dean Brass Ensembles are different brass than the ones in the "mars" demo, which I still am not fond of (sorry Bruce).

    Its a pretty interesting comment about not caring about the articulations. I've found that after playing with/ownign alot of the libraries that articulations and variations of them really do help ALOT in terms of realism of performances.

    Sound is a completely different and viable issue tho. VSL isn't really an "out of the box" library in these terms, one does need to pan and throw some reverb on and EQ can help (tho reverb tends to be enough) . I have a feeling that this wont be much of an issue as VSL develops tho, there are alot of options for the future that us as users can share, as well as the team can develop, as it is an ongoing project, the first of its kind really. Its still my favorite just because its very flexible in terms of sound. And the amount of time I save tweaking midi to get realistic performances is pretty great.

    If you're into sound "out of the box", and want it RIGHT NOW check out Dan Dean Brass ensembles, and Sonic Implants Strings, both have a great sound out of the box. You'll, however, find that in the end you'll want to vary the sound and will end up EQing tweaking after you get "used" to the sounds, or even when you want a slightly different sound (not all cues work with the same mixes). They're still great tho.

    In the future you may want to keep an ear out for East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra. It will have multiple mic positions, allowing you to create a "mix" you like. There's no doubt that this library will rock as well

    About GOS, wonderful library. I've used it extensively for a while, but not exclusively. It also takes a bit of work to get a sound I like, but its one of my favorite sounds (especially with the upcoming update). Its "bigger" sounding to me. If you actually llisten to the samples you can hear a bit of distance between the mics and strings, its jsut that its not drowned in ambience. Making it work pretty well with reverbs IMO. A little EQ helps too. There are issues with the lib, but in the end not one library is perfect all the way around. Just like all libs.

    In the end you're gonna find reasons to complain about any library, and some will work better for some cues and others libraries better for other cues. Wish we could buy them all. I'm just glad there are some libraries that are updating pretty fequently, and that they may focus on user distresses

  • Just to follow up to King (I think I agree with most of what he said [:)]).

    Definitely Dan Dean Brass Ensemble for out of box experience. One thing I really appreciate about Dan's latest stuff (i.e., solo brass/woodwinds ensemble brass) is the number of dynamic layers he has programmed. Having said that I am EXTREMELY exited about the performance tools that come with VSL...this type of out of box experience changes everything for me in terms of time. I only with there were more dynamics available in this FIRST EDITION release. I am really looking forward to the PRO edition.

    Also my favorite out of box strings are still Miroslav Vitous. For one dynamic layer no string sounds as beautiful in my opinion.

    What makes VSL a great library is not so much it's size, but how comprehensive it is. I think King mentioned this before, but my other libraries do seem to blend in well with it (I am thinking specifically of DanDean Brass Ensembles/Woodwinds as of late).

  • last edited
    last edited
    Eolcott, you should mention more clearly your review is about the CUBE only! [[:)]] Once you've received your Performance SET, I think you'll want to change your words.

    Now, please know, below is just MY 2 cents, having used and beta'd VSL for about four weeks now, though very extensively. This is not me defending VSL, or an attack on your review. It's my opinion.

    About the CUBE.
    When I created my VSL user demos I thought one of the good things about the samples in overall was to have them falling into a mix. No difficulties with different sounds, levels, pans (if it would have been different libraries), because all samples have been recorded in the same surrounding, by the same players and crew. What one does need to do of course, is make a realistic balance between your orchestral instruments. If you like a 100% dry sound, reverb could be left out completely as the original ambience can be heard, very subtle, but I think anyone would agree some extra reverb at the least is better.

    I don't really agree VSL has no character. But it kinda depends on what you call character. What I like about the music I created so far with VSL is that it sounds like it's been performed by the same ensemble. That's a good thing.

    I think what it comes down to for me: tread VSL like a real orchestra, regarding mix, balance, reverb, orchestration (!) and compression/EQ, and you will be pleased. You have to make it well balanced, like any real engineer has for a daytime job. [[:)]] And I think that is part of the fun and the craft.

    Now, you can be sure your thoughts about "not having to do anything to make it sing" will certainly change once you have the Performance Set. As you all those legato patches can be played realtime on the keys and, depending on the instrument, sound absolutely real for about 70 or 80%.

    Last, but not least, maybe it would be interesting to hear your mix. We could hear the issues you're talking about, and perhaps come with suggestions. Is this a possibility?

    Best,

    Maarten

  • well, after reading people's responses and listening to a few more demos, I have come to a few conclusions:

    1. I realize that the "out-of-the-box" sound is what I'm used to. If I want to get really pro at this, I have to be able to spend the extra time and EQ/compress/reverb as necessary. I am *totally* anxious for this approach, as I use it for all the rock stuff I do. I just never knewsamples reached this range until recently.

    2. I listened to some more demos. Some blow me away, some are OK (Stravinsky - nice try, admittedly supremely difficult tho). If *that* sound and performance is possible, then I just need more experience and skill.

    3. The performance set will change everything. I cannot wait.

    4. I need a larger hard drive.

    Thanks all for your *really* constructive words - I have a small soundalike project to do this week, and I intend to try it with solely VSL strings and get my skillz up.

    Practice, practice!