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  4. VI Trombone Unnatural Legato

  • VI Trombone Unnatural Legato

    M
    M
    I love most of the VI wind instruments, but the trombone has a significant problem. Unlike other brass instruments, the trombone must use a slight amount of tonguing to produce a smooth vibrato. This is because it does not have valves which would make smooth transition between notes in a single breath without tongue articulation. The trombone must use the tongue to make a slight articulation between notes to simulate the smooth legato of other valved brass instruments; without the tongue it would just sound like short glissandi.

    The VI trombone in legato mode (perf interval) is a very unconvincing sound and I have tried to edit it to make it more realistic but to no avail. I have tried altering the attack and release but this does not seem to make much difference. Is there anyway I can edit this patch to get a more realistic effect? Are there any plans to introduce a new set of articulations for the trombone? Please talk to your trombonist about this; he’ll explain why it sounds unrealistic.

    Thanks,
    Mike Coyle

    http://www.composersforum.org/member_profile.cfm?oid=5648

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Coyle
  • W
    W
    The trombone legato samples are fantastic. They are actual notes that are played in one breath. If you wish to create legato, you use those and they work perfectly. If you wish a glissando you use that. Otherwise, the individual notes work fine.
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    @William said:

    The trombone legato samples are fantastic. They are actual notes that are played in one breath. If you wish to create legato, you use those and they work perfectly. If you wish a glissando you use that. Otherwise, the individual notes work fine.


    I know what you're saying, William, that playing the notes in a detache manner at the keyboard you can approximate an ok trombone legato, however, it would be nice if the samples had actually incorporated a tongued legato articulation (somewhat like singing the syllables daa, daa, daa). That's the real way a trombonist makes a "simulated legato". However, using a detached keyboard stroke actually creates a somewhat detached trombone articulation, not convincing as a real trombone legato. But it beats the bad sounding glissando-like legato that occurs when you play the keyboard in a true legato manner.

    Take for example the notes F (below middle C) down to the C a 4th below. In a true legato, the trombone can either play it as a tongued slur (1st position to 6th position), or as a shift in harmonic series (F in 6th position lip slurred down to C in 6th position, or most commonly, it would be played as a shift in harmonic series as F in 1st position to C in 1st position with the F-attachment engaged.- a true valve legato. Go to your keyboard and play that interval in a keyboard legato style. It sounds like a glissando. That is NOT legato. Then if you play it at the keyboard in a more detached style, it sounds like two non-legato notes played on a trombone - nice, but again, NOT legato.

    This being so and given my experience as a former trombonist, I have to ultimately disagree with you and stick to my original opinion. As a composer, I am equally picky about the articulations of all winds and I think all but the trombone are quite convincing!

    I’m sorry if you think I am being too hard on VSL. You should see how hard I am on my own musicians and myself! [:D] Music is a real gift and food for the soul, but only when it is performed as artfully as possible!

    Mike
  • W
    W
    I don't think you are being particularly hard on VSL, however it is not true what you are saying as far as I know.

    The tongued legato transtions which trombonists use to make smooth connections of notes that are not actually slurred on one slide position ARE IN FACT SAMPLED.

    Aren't they, VSL?

    Anyway, you can verify this by listening to the single note sustain trombone playing a series of notes that are supposed to be legato, and then the same phrase with a performance legato version. The first is a faked recreation of tongued legato done with overlapping tails. The second is the real thing with dissected legato transitions between notes.
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    @Another User said:

    The tongued legato transtions which trombonists use to make smooth connections of notes that are not actually slurred on one slide position ARE IN FACT SAMPLED.

    Aren't they, VSL?



    They are!

    best
    Herb
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    @William said:

    I don't think you are being particularly hard on VSL, however it is not true what you are saying as far as I know.

    The tongued legato transtions which trombonists use to make smooth connections of notes that are not actually slurred on one slide position ARE IN FACT SAMPLED.

    Aren't they, VSL?

    Anyway, you can verify this by listening to the single note sustain trombone playing a series of notes that are supposed to be legato, and then the same phrase with a performance legato version. The first is a faked recreation of tongued legato done with overlapping tails. The second is the real thing with dissected legato transitions between notes.


    William,

    Perhaps I am using the wrong keyboard articulation. When you play the trombone legato samples do you use a detached keyboard style or are you playing them in a true keyboard legato style? It might just be that I am using the wrong finger articulation. All the other winds get a very realistic legtato by using real legato keyboard technique. I'm interested in hearing what you do.

    THanks,

    Mike
  • W
    W
    It's basically creating a slight overlap between the end of one note and the beginning of the next.

    Though with the trombone legato in particular it is sometimes desirable to switch between new attacks and legato transitions, because the legato is very emphasized (as it probably should be) in the samples. In other words it is not a real subtle legato. So if compared to a live trombone it will sound more "slidy" on some transitions if you use it constantly. I just did a piece that was all legato in trombone ensemble and solo trombone and kept it all legato because they were inner parts and I liked the connectedness it gave to the ensemble as a whole. However, if you were listening to them exposed you might want to intersperse some freshly attacked single notes depending on the pairing of notes. Another aspect of this is that the legato samples actually have two different things that are being done by the player - one is a slide change and tongued transition between notes, the other is a single slide position and no tongue but a slur to a note within the same harmonic series. So they are completely different sounds and you often want to emphasize the slur to a different partial rather than the slide position changes for expressive reasons.