@JWL said:

Also worth mentioning are Respighi's orchestral transcriptions of the works of Bach and Rachmaninoff. Purists may balk, but studying the manner in which he exploded these composers' keyboard works into full orchestral scores is beyond edifying. These are also great lessons in scoring for quadruple winds.

From piano to orchestra, don't forget Ravel's orchestration of Mussorgsky's 'Pictures at an Exhibition'.

Arguably more useful for analysis (because they strip the harmony to its bare essentials), there are Liszt's piano reductions of all of Beethoven's symphonies.

FCW, great posts. [:)] I want every one of those scores. But many are tough to find in the US for some reason. Seaching Google and Amazon for the Prokofiev Romeo & Juliet and Shostachovich Symphony #5 has been turning up snake eyes. The Julia Winterson book is also unavailable in the US. Does anyone have a good online source for scores, besides the Dover scores available from Amazon? I'll keep watching eBay, the Shostakovich came up yesterday but seemed expensive to me for a used copy.

One thing nobody here has mentioned so far is how do you learn from the scores? - orchestration is easier to pick up, but harmonic structure and harmonic rhythm not so perhaps. What I've found frustrating with books on harmony is how often examples are illustrated which do simply that: they just illustrate one chord followed by another and by another. This works, so does this, so does this etc etc. Without a teacher it's very hard to discuss anything!

@Another User said:

Does anyone have a good online source for scores, besides the Dover scores available from Amazon? I'll keep watching eBay, the Shostakovich came up yesterday but seemed expensive to me for a used copy.

If you use an RSS reader, you can use it to keep an eye on eBay for you.

Do some searches that are likely to find what you want, even if there's nothing suitable there at present. You'll find that you can subscribe to each of those searches using RSS, and that means that whenever new items show up in those searches, they'll appear in the newsfeed in your RSS reader. This makes it more likely you'll spot something as it goes by without having to visit eBay all the time.

Good ideas. I just discovered the eBay RSS feed. Anyone know of used bookshops in LA, CA that sell scores? I occasionally see them pop up at the used bookstores on Brand blvd in Glendale. With two major music schools in LA (USC, UCLA) and so many starving composers, there must be used scores out there. [:)]

Patelson's in NYC is also a great shop for scores, but you pay full price of course.

The IMSLP site also has piano reductions, which can be useful for studying the harmonic devices in these works.

I just bought a bunch of the scores I was looking for cheap on eBay. [:)]

As far as what to do with them, here's how I've been taught:

1. Find a section you want to study. There might be a passage in a score that reminds you of a film, whatever.
2. Get some "short score" paper to reduce the score and transpose it to concert pitch. This should be the same short score you normally use, whether it's 6 staves or 12.
3. Figure out the different sectons of the arrangement: melody, countermelody, pad, etc.
4. Look at the dynamic markings of each part to learn dynamic balance
5. To really learn it backwards and forwards, record the excerpt into your sequencer.
6. Keep your marked-up short score in a library. Label it "soaring," "romantic," whatever you take away from it.

I was looking at some scores for the last two nights, and I think I have a new plan for study:

1. Find a movement that I want to learn from. I'm starting with not-so-dense passages at first, so I chose "Venus" from Holst's Planets.
2. Play the movement al the way through while trying to follow along with the score
3. Play again, but this time stop playback every few measures to look at what's going on. Label sections of the score with the imagery I feel, "Quiet forest light," "Magic opening," "Go to sleep, little girl."
4. Go through the score again, this time without playback. Break down the harmonic progressions of the sections (Key, chords, etc.).
5. Write a short piece using the orchestration and harmonic devices form the score. It should not sound like a "rip off" to the listener, but should use similar orchestration devices. This seems like a real-world application of how to use scores to improve a film score.

I'm mid-way through step 4 on Venus. [[:)]]

My big pile of scores arrived today: Dvorak Symph #9, Shostakovich Symph #5, Prokoffiev Romeo & Juliet, Stravinsky Firebird and Strauss Tone Poems (Don Juan, Tod Und Verklarung, Don Quixote, Ein Heldenleben, Also Sprach Zarathustra, Till Eulenspiegel) With the ones I had already (Rite of Spring, ET Adventures on Earth, etc.), I should stay busy for a while. [[:)]] I'm already thinking I'll need Appasionata Strings to bring these sounds to life.

A "miniature" score is half of letter size, pretty small. A "study" score is smaller than letter but still a good size. "Conductor's" score is tabliod size. There doesn't seem to be agreement on any of these standards.

Amazon in the US sells scores published by Dover, you might try that in the UK. They publish affordable public domain scores (i.e. not much 20th century stuff). Also hunt on eBay.

The first thing that comes to mind for the UK is Boosey & Hawkes.

http://www.boosey.com/

@vibrato said:

This is a bit weird...

but I cant find many places to get full orchestral scores online in the UK.

Where do you people get your scores from? I am very inspired by this thread and according to plan wish to study scores.....I have found a few sites in the US but nothing proper in the UK....

Foyles has many (mostly miniature, A5-ish) scores on their third floor, and a modest selection of Dover, Boosey and Hawkes and other A4-ish scores too.

(Note: Dover has an actual bookshop on Earlham Street in central London, but they do not stock any of their own music scores, so it's not worth visiting unless you want other Dover publications, such as printed clip art.)

Chappell of Bond Street also have a decent selection of scores and sheet music -- note that they are no longer in Bond Street, just to confuse you.

As I said in an earlier post, there are also various second-hand bookshops in London that sell scores -- for example, I picked up three last weekend (Wagner, Grieg, Rossini) from one there for £2 each.

Second-hand bookshops are worth browsing, not just in London but wherever you live, because you often find otherwise unadvertised gems: in a bookshop in Hampton the other month, I found a leather-bound copy of both volumes of Bach's well-tempered piano for £10; and in a bargain bin off Charing Cross Road a while ago I found scores for Mozart's 40th and 41st symphonies that included extensive hand-written conductor's notes and a type-written analysis, all for a few pounds.

If you don't have any reasonable shops nearby, eBay UK continues to be a good source of cheap scores. And if the works you're interested in are now in the public domain, you can probably get them free, and perfectly legally, from sites like imslp.org.

This is the first piece I wrote as an exercise in orchestration. I took a classical score, in this case "Venus" from Holst's The Planets, and analysed it every way I could. I labeled the score with emotions I felt from listening, I broke down the harmonies, and studied every part.

I then tried to write a piece in the same style. The structure and orchestration are very similar to Venus, but with new themes. So it is kind of a "rip off," but it wouldn't have been a very useful exercise if it wasn't. I'll probably make more of an effort to differentiate next time, if nothing else to have something to add to my reel.

http://www.jefflaity.com/music/MP3/peaceful.mp3

Strings are VSL Appasionata Strings, except for the solo strings which is VSL pro edition. The horn solo is WIVI Trial, the rest of the brass, inds and harp is SI. Project SAM Celesta, reverb by GigaPulse VST.

Sorry about the length, as I said it was mostly an exercise but I'm posting for the heck of it. Next time I'll make more of an effort to make it sound less derivative.

Hi, I'm also very much a beginner looking to learn orchestration. Would anyone consider Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain or Dukas' The Sorceror's Apprentice worthy of study. Sections of them sound very much like film music to me (in fact some parts of The Sorceror's Apprentice are very reminiscent of Star Wars).

If you like the sound of the piece and want to know how it's done, then any piece is worthy of study. Especially an established piece of repertoire like those.

@vibrato said:

Hey guys..

Need some help in getting started with analysing scores. I am fairly new to notation, scoring etc.

But I think its time for me to dig into some proper scores.

Can people suggest any study scores (and where to get them if you can)?

Also some film scores worth looking at - even if just for how its all laid out and for orcehstration of course. I think this is the only way to really learn how its done.

I know there are John Williams Signature edition scores from Hal Leonard and I found a web site in the US where they are selling quite a few of them.

Any other scores? Even if its classical. I am hoping these scores are arranged in concert pitch and just how they are recorded - so that I can correct my sight reading and understand how the notated effect is produced aurally.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks!

Best,
Tanuj.

Hello Tanuj & all,

[:)]

Are you still looking for scores? You might try going here:

http://www.truespec.com/index.php

Look to the Browse section on the left side of the screen.

I hope this is of some help to you.

Highest regards,

Steve

Hi All,

How would you rate the scores in Rimsky-Korsakov for one beginning to study orchestration?


Also, doesn't this text dismiss LVB as a towering genius of composition, but a merely adequate orchestrator? What to make of this perspective?

A fascinating discussion,

Best,
Ian

@Ian McDonald said:

Also, doesn't this text dismiss LVB as a towering genius of composition, but a merely adequate orchestrator? What to make of this perspective?

Korsakov refers to a "brilliant" type of orchestration which indeed was the future of the art. He dismisses LvB because he didn't practice that particular approach. The orchestra was expanding and instruments were being improved which allowed for this. However, the new approach also was about a new style of music as well (i.e. Beethoven said what he wanted to say the way he wanted to and his orchestration is not a limited expression but a wonder of the art.) Also the limitations Korsakov refers to are in a few very specific areas thus LvB's string writing for example couldn't have gone out of vogue since they remained the same instruments technically - basically.

That's why criticsm of Beethoven's orchestration begins and ends with Korsakov and all modern orchestration books are loaded up with examples of LvB. He is as good an orchestrator as ever picked up the pen.

Given that Beethoven basically invented orchestration, Rimsky-Korsakov's criticism is an artifact of history not to be taken seriously today. Rimsky was attempting to establish a national distinction for Russian music apart from the dominance of Germanic models and his treatise on orchestration was a part of it. Also, the reason I say that of Beethoven is that he was the first composer to use the orchestra in a way beyond the classical model of Haydn. Mozart did not live long enough to develop it further (though certainly would have and had started to do so in the last symphonies such as the g minor). So Beethoven was the one who created a new expressive use of the instruments - starting with the Eroica, continuing with the 5th and 6th, and ending with the 9th - that is still highly influential either directly or through his countless imitators or successors. Look at how influenced Brahms was - to the extent that his 1st symphony was often called "Beethoven's Tenth." Or the significance upon Mahler's entire conception of orchestral use. All of that filters down to today, even in film music. So the origin of most of what we call "orchestration" is Beethoven.

Well said William and I couldn't agree more.

@dpcon said:

Well said William and I couldn't agree more.

Ditto

Hi William, dpcon,

Thanks for that - glad to know that that Beethoven's reputation remains untarnished. I thought that calling Beethoven mediocre sounded a bit dodgy, but who am I to argue with RK?

Any further suggestions on how, as a beginner in orchestration, to contextualize Rimsk-Korsakov's text? Are there better places to start from? Is there anything else about his historical perspective/agenda affect that a student should watch out for?

Great thread!

Ian