@hermitage59 said:

You made a good point about the limitations of the instrument though. And horns in particular. But i wonder if we've gained anything playing Beethoven on a chromatic instrument, versus the skill required to play in the harmonic scale with manual slide changes. I wonder if the modern horn is too....'fat' in sound to play as the composer heard it. And maybe this relates to the horn/bassoon passage you wrote of. Should it be, in fact, the reverse of modern expectations? A thinner sounding horn would create a better balance with the bassoon?

Still, what do i know!

Regards,

Alex.

Alex you are correct about a thinner sounding horn for Beethoven, and this is exactly my point. His orchestration works perfectly for the instruments of the day. The modern student is not writing for those instruments, so this has to be taken into consideration.

DG

@dpcon said:

Speaking of the 5th: How about the two clarinets doubling the violins on the most famous theme in the history of music? (1st mvt., bar 1 meas 1.) You don't really hear them per se but they're there - why? Or the entire strings distribution with the basses in unison at pitch with the cellos? Burning! And so the wonderful journey begins. So this is why I cannot recommend LvB fast enough to any student.

This is my whole point. What Beethoven heard bears very little resemblance to the performance that you would get with the VSL sample library, so I think that it should be studied when one has a better grasp of basic orchestration. You have to have a point of reference; I just don't think that Beethoven, performed with modern instruments, is the correct one for a first port of call.

Now look, I've spent far too much time typing about all this, when I should be programming Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty. [:D]

DG

@DG said:

Now look, I've spent far too much time typing about all this, when I should be programming Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty. [:D] DG

Well I'll sleep on all this but there won't be anything like a sleeping beauty involved [[;)]]

Cheers DG

Very proud indeed William. I in fact still have the 5th opened here and am looking at the twelve staffs at bar one. This is exactly why I would recommend the grand master as it is very easy to look at. Indeed at bar 18 I am already intrigued at the orchestration which shows everyone in to punctuate the half cadence. The distribution here is brilliant with oboes and bassoons married to the vlns and celli but clarinets curiously not with the violas (they have their own figure.) Flutes are 8va the oboes but all this changes on the quarter notes to bring out the tune and harmony to best effect. (I have now been absorbed in these four measure for at least 15 minutes.)
One only need to point out that the brass writing is idiomatic to the period and see how well they are punching through the texture in their ranges at forte and etc., etc.

I deleted the last response I had to DG's desecration of all human values, because my hands were shaking too hard at the keyboard to be able to type legibly. Also, the foam dripping from my mouth was beginning to short out my computer.

If you want scores for analysis, consider getting 'The New Anthology of Music' by Julia Winterson, ISBN 1901507033. It has over 60 works in full score, including cues from 'On the Waterfront', 'Planet of the Apes' and 'ET', as well as classical, vocal, ethnic, jazz and pop. There is also an accompanying multi-CD set which has (almost) every piece.

If you don't have it, I strongly recommend the Adler book and CD combination; there is also a student workbook with lots of listening, orchestrating and comprehension exercises. (Note that, if you want the answers, you have to write to the publishers and convince then you're not actually a music student trying to cheat.)

If you want a handy thesaurus of modern scoring techniques for film, I suggest getting to know the following works, all of which have both multiple recorded versions and easily-available scores:

[list:d396d4b024]The Planets by Holst
Romeo and Juliet by Prokofiev
The Rite of Spring by Stravinsky
Second Symphony by Sibelius
Sixth Symphony by Vaughan Williams
Noctures by Debussy[/list:u:d396d4b024]

Also consider almost any symphonic or film score by Shostakovich, Lieutenant Kije, Alexander Nevsky and Peter and the Wolf by Prokofiev.

If you want printed scores, Dover do decent large-sized reprints that easily tolerate being annotated without obscuring the score. Here are a few I have within arms length, with ISBNs:

[list:d396d4b024]048623861X Tchaikovsky's 4th, 5th and 6th Symphonies
0486260348 Beethoven's 5th, 6th and 7th Symphonies
048624749X Dvorak's 8th and 9th ('From the new world') Symphonies
0486244415 Debussy's Noctures, La Mer and Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un faune
0486247341 Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade[/list:u:d396d4b024]

You can also pick up lots of fairly cheap, good-condition scores by Eulenberg or Boosey & Hawkes on eBay.

If you don't mind printing your own, you can download scads of public-domain scores from the International Music Score Library Project.

You can also get some scores by Aaron Copland from the Library of Congress's web site.

Just look at Beethoven's 3rd, 5th and 9th. Debussy's La Mer, Jeux and Images, Mahler's 2nd, 6th and 9th, and the Tchaikovsky 6th.

You will learn everything there is to know about orchestration.

@William said:

I deleted the last response I had to DG's desecration of all human values, because my hands were shaking too hard at the keyboard to be able to type legibly. Also, the foam dripping from my mouth was beginning to short out my computer.

Spoilsport. [:D]

DG

Daphnis et Chloe (Ravel)
Senssemaya (Revueltas)
The Strauss tone poems

@magates said:

Daphnis et Chloe (Ravel)
Senssemaya (Revueltas)
The Strauss tone poems

Oh my gosh yes indeed!!

For Strauss, I'd have to include his operas as well: some of THE most brilliant orchestrations I've ever seen.

Also worth mentioning are Respighi's orchestral transcriptions of the works of Bach and Rachmaninoff. Purists may balk, but studying the manner in which he exploded these composers' keyboard works into full orchestral scores is beyond edifying. These are also great lessons in scoring for quadruple winds.

@JWL said:

Also worth mentioning are Respighi's orchestral transcriptions of the works of Bach and Rachmaninoff. Purists may balk, but studying the manner in which he exploded these composers' keyboard works into full orchestral scores is beyond edifying. These are also great lessons in scoring for quadruple winds.

From piano to orchestra, don't forget Ravel's orchestration of Mussorgsky's 'Pictures at an Exhibition'.

Arguably more useful for analysis (because they strip the harmony to its bare essentials), there are Liszt's piano reductions of all of Beethoven's symphonies.

FCW, great posts. [:)] I want every one of those scores. But many are tough to find in the US for some reason. Seaching Google and Amazon for the Prokofiev Romeo & Juliet and Shostachovich Symphony #5 has been turning up snake eyes. The Julia Winterson book is also unavailable in the US. Does anyone have a good online source for scores, besides the Dover scores available from Amazon? I'll keep watching eBay, the Shostakovich came up yesterday but seemed expensive to me for a used copy.

One thing nobody here has mentioned so far is how do you learn from the scores? - orchestration is easier to pick up, but harmonic structure and harmonic rhythm not so perhaps. What I've found frustrating with books on harmony is how often examples are illustrated which do simply that: they just illustrate one chord followed by another and by another. This works, so does this, so does this etc etc. Without a teacher it's very hard to discuss anything!

@Another User said:

Does anyone have a good online source for scores, besides the Dover scores available from Amazon? I'll keep watching eBay, the Shostakovich came up yesterday but seemed expensive to me for a used copy.

If you use an RSS reader, you can use it to keep an eye on eBay for you.

Do some searches that are likely to find what you want, even if there's nothing suitable there at present. You'll find that you can subscribe to each of those searches using RSS, and that means that whenever new items show up in those searches, they'll appear in the newsfeed in your RSS reader. This makes it more likely you'll spot something as it goes by without having to visit eBay all the time.

Good ideas. I just discovered the eBay RSS feed. Anyone know of used bookshops in LA, CA that sell scores? I occasionally see them pop up at the used bookstores on Brand blvd in Glendale. With two major music schools in LA (USC, UCLA) and so many starving composers, there must be used scores out there. [:)]

Patelson's in NYC is also a great shop for scores, but you pay full price of course.

The IMSLP site also has piano reductions, which can be useful for studying the harmonic devices in these works.

I just bought a bunch of the scores I was looking for cheap on eBay. [:)]

As far as what to do with them, here's how I've been taught:

1. Find a section you want to study. There might be a passage in a score that reminds you of a film, whatever.
2. Get some "short score" paper to reduce the score and transpose it to concert pitch. This should be the same short score you normally use, whether it's 6 staves or 12.
3. Figure out the different sectons of the arrangement: melody, countermelody, pad, etc.
4. Look at the dynamic markings of each part to learn dynamic balance
5. To really learn it backwards and forwards, record the excerpt into your sequencer.
6. Keep your marked-up short score in a library. Label it "soaring," "romantic," whatever you take away from it.

I was looking at some scores for the last two nights, and I think I have a new plan for study:

1. Find a movement that I want to learn from. I'm starting with not-so-dense passages at first, so I chose "Venus" from Holst's Planets.
2. Play the movement al the way through while trying to follow along with the score
3. Play again, but this time stop playback every few measures to look at what's going on. Label sections of the score with the imagery I feel, "Quiet forest light," "Magic opening," "Go to sleep, little girl."
4. Go through the score again, this time without playback. Break down the harmonic progressions of the sections (Key, chords, etc.).
5. Write a short piece using the orchestration and harmonic devices form the score. It should not sound like a "rip off" to the listener, but should use similar orchestration devices. This seems like a real-world application of how to use scores to improve a film score.

I'm mid-way through step 4 on Venus. [[:)]]

My big pile of scores arrived today: Dvorak Symph #9, Shostakovich Symph #5, Prokoffiev Romeo & Juliet, Stravinsky Firebird and Strauss Tone Poems (Don Juan, Tod Und Verklarung, Don Quixote, Ein Heldenleben, Also Sprach Zarathustra, Till Eulenspiegel) With the ones I had already (Rite of Spring, ET Adventures on Earth, etc.), I should stay busy for a while. [[:)]] I'm already thinking I'll need Appasionata Strings to bring these sounds to life.

A "miniature" score is half of letter size, pretty small. A "study" score is smaller than letter but still a good size. "Conductor's" score is tabliod size. There doesn't seem to be agreement on any of these standards.

Amazon in the US sells scores published by Dover, you might try that in the UK. They publish affordable public domain scores (i.e. not much 20th century stuff). Also hunt on eBay.

The first thing that comes to mind for the UK is Boosey & Hawkes.

http://www.boosey.com/

@vibrato said:

This is a bit weird...

but I cant find many places to get full orchestral scores online in the UK.

Where do you people get your scores from? I am very inspired by this thread and according to plan wish to study scores.....I have found a few sites in the US but nothing proper in the UK....

Foyles has many (mostly miniature, A5-ish) scores on their third floor, and a modest selection of Dover, Boosey and Hawkes and other A4-ish scores too.

(Note: Dover has an actual bookshop on Earlham Street in central London, but they do not stock any of their own music scores, so it's not worth visiting unless you want other Dover publications, such as printed clip art.)

Chappell of Bond Street also have a decent selection of scores and sheet music -- note that they are no longer in Bond Street, just to confuse you.

As I said in an earlier post, there are also various second-hand bookshops in London that sell scores -- for example, I picked up three last weekend (Wagner, Grieg, Rossini) from one there for £2 each.

Second-hand bookshops are worth browsing, not just in London but wherever you live, because you often find otherwise unadvertised gems: in a bookshop in Hampton the other month, I found a leather-bound copy of both volumes of Bach's well-tempered piano for £10; and in a bargain bin off Charing Cross Road a while ago I found scores for Mozart's 40th and 41st symphonies that included extensive hand-written conductor's notes and a type-written analysis, all for a few pounds.

If you don't have any reasonable shops nearby, eBay UK continues to be a good source of cheap scores. And if the works you're interested in are now in the public domain, you can probably get them free, and perfectly legally, from sites like imslp.org.