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  1. Home
  2. Orchestration & Composition
  3. Your Music
  4. looking for an orchestrator (needs to know finale)
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
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    alex, reading the line

    @Another User said:

    the more the bigger players consider themselves free of blame for the scenario they created
    i've noticed to have left out a basic consideration which is of course true and somehow leading to an undesirable automatism.
    on the other hand from my personal experience the best counterexample is The Venice Procect which never had happended if everybody had kept waiting until a full regular financing had been completed - not to support such projects would mean to miss a unique chance forever.
    if someone or something has the power to convince enough people its worth the effort, it might be admissible to *break the rules*
    christian
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • M
    M
    Okay let me put some numbers out there to make it clearer. This film's budget is just over 200k - not music budget - the entire film - I begged for $8,000 to record with orchestra - and the director literally said - well I guess I can just wait a few more years to get a new car. A typical music budget is 1-5% so 2-10k is about right.

    One orchestrator offered to do the job for 25k - and that might be fair - on a studio film - but how am I going to afford that? This isn't even really orchestration proper - it's much easier - a good copyist could do it just as well - heck I could probably teach my mom to do it.

    This isn't a film anyone is working on to make money. We are all doing it for other reasons. I am doing it to build experience, credits and my "reel" I am all of 24 years old and I've been out of school all of 2 years.

    I think if you look for the negative in life you WILL find it. If you are prepared for and expect to see a lack of work you will literally notice lack and ignore opportunity. This isn't metaphysical - you have something called a reticulating activation system - that tells your brain what to notice and ignore. So, be careful what you tell yourself. If you constantly are saying work is scarce, no one values my work, there are no opportunities - you will get that. Instead feed yourself positive thoughts. It's all about attitude. It IS possible to make a GREAT living as a composer or orchestrator - but you have to be willing to have the right attitude. and no I am not implying that you have to barter with me to prove you have the right attitude.
  • S
    S
    Matt,

    I just caught this thread. You and I were in the workshop together. Good luck with your film and if you need any orchestration help in the future, drop me a line. Best wishes.

    Sean Paxton
    scpax@aol.com
  • M
    M
    ...Hmm....

    Well a few things are true:

    1) Orchestras - if they're any good - are expensive. Real expensive.

    2) A lot of projects that think they can't afford orchestras, have more than enough money for one, if they deprioritize name-brand snack-cakes at craft services. But they don't, because 1) Everybody eats a craft services and 2) Nobody ever sees you until the film is done and wrapped, and 3) Did I mention how big a deal food is on a movie set?

    3) Not enough of us push back against the whole thing. You gotta stand up and make that fight, which a lot of us won't because we're afraid of losing the gig. I've made more than a few conversions over the years through Academy-Award-worthy impassioned speeches and a few brutal side-by-side examples of virtual versus real. I've seen budgets magically go from $50k for music to $250k. At a certain budget level, it's in there. Doesn't mean they'll spend it.

    4) Sometimes, you just don't have enough bread to do it all right, so you're calling in the favors. Do it sparingly, because that word spreads at lightspeed, but know that it happens and don't beat yourself up about it forever.

    Just be sure to go a few rounds with the director - I told one once that a virtual orchestra is like a really good blow-up doll of your girlfriend; just 'cause it looks a lot like her, doesn't mean it feels the same. He actually went for it. So you never know. If cheese like that can instantly quadruple a budget, then don't fear going for it.


    _Mike
  • J
    J
    Bravo, Mike. I agree with your statements 100%.

    As an orchestrator, I've seen composers fear losing the gig so they don't push for what they know is really needed. More than one of these guys has gotten dumped and then magically, a new composer is hired and suddenly there is a full budget!
  • W
    W
    Bullshit Mike.

    A virtual performance is like a blow up doll of your girlfriend huh?

    What a piece of shit.

    As compared to what ? Comatose live string players sawing like idiots on crap orchestrations they hate, financed by idiot producers who mistakenly paid for live in order to get a "Class" post production and brag about it, while the dork composer thinks he is Beethoven because somebody is playing his wretched music live ?

    As opposed to a brilliant composition by an individual artist who prefers to use samples or maybe even an analog synth because that allows him superior control of all the elements of composition. yeah right. You really know what you are talking about... [8-)]
  • D
    D
    William, I think that both you and Mike can be correct under the right circumstances. There is no doubt that for most of what I do the sound is going to be far better with a live orchestra. However, if the players were not of the top quality, this certainly wouldn't be the case. I hate programming, and being a performer at heart, I would rather be working with other musicians than sitting in my studio. However you may well prefer having ultimate control over every note.

    FWIW I can think of many past girlfriends who made me wish fro a blow-up doll..!

    DG
  • W
    W
    O.K., I was excessive as usual. No offense. However any suggestion of the old knee-jerk idea that samples are a pathetic substitute for the real thing is very irritating. Especially among sample users.
  • D
    D
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    @William said:

    O.K., I was excessive as usual. No offense. However any suggestion of the old knee-jerk idea that samples are a pathetic substitute for the real thing is very irritating. Especially among sample users.

    Agreed.

    DG
  • N
    N
    I know I'm way late to this conversation...but let me point this out....It is WAY cheaper to produce a film this days.  HD cameras,computers to edit picture with, mics to record audio.....everything involved with creating a film is way cheaper.  So why are composers/orchestrators working for nothing?  Someone is pocketing alot of the money musicians should be getting.
  • D
    D

    I'm afraid that the bottom line is this:

    1) Orchestrators and Engineers get paid. If the composer does really well out of the film, it is extremely unlikely that they will pass on a bonus. Do orchestrators get a share of the Royalties? Not in my experience.

    2) Just because an orchestrator has worked for a composer before, it doesn't mean that they will be asked again. I was bumped off a film earlier this year simply because the Producers were unfamiliar with the Director's choice of composer and insisted on a team that had worked on one of "their" films before. I had worked for this composer for around 4 years, earning him 2 BAFTA's in the process.

    So as I said in point 1), orchestrators get paid. If you can't afford an orchestrator, then do it yourself, or use samples. Why should the film company get something they haven't paid for anyway?

    DG
  • M
    M
    no one's pocketing a lot of money these films (like the one I needed help with) at best break even and often lose money as they go direct to DVD.
  • D
    D

    So did the orchestra get paid? Did the engineer on the session get paid? Did the studio get paid?

    If the budget was so small, why use an orchestra?

    DG
  • N
    N
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    @magates said:

    no one's pocketing a lot of money these films (like the one I needed help with) at best break even and often lose money as they go direct to DVD.

     Really??  Who ended up with the $300K.  The camera man? Editor? Actors?
  • M
    M
    300k divided over the entire crew means no one is making a fair wage, which sucks, but I guess we all do it for the experience at this point, why use an orchestra? Because it sounds better than just synths?
  • W
    W

    "... because it sounds better than just synths"  - magates

    How does it sound compared to VSL?   Is that a "synth" ?  What is that statement supposed to mean anyway? 

    BTW, it is obvious you are screwing people blue. The simple fact of the matter is - people always want music. But they never want to pay for it. And in filmmaking, the composer is usually the single most artistically talented person involved in the entire production. And gets screwed most of the time...

    I would advise anyone to tell this guy to take a flying fuck.  If you have any self respect.
  • W
    W

    BTW

    I am a filmmaker and 300K is huge. For an intelligently made low budget film.  Ask Roger Corman.   His films still cost $250,000 - and pay composers.
  • W
    W

    and on top of that, i can make a complete feature for approximately 1/10 that cost. And pay the composer.  of course, I am the composer.  So I take a huge chunk of the budget.
  • W
    W

    and one last thing -

    stay true to yourself, and avoid Maggots.  Sorry sir, Magates. I need to get that name straight. My apologies.

    You my fellow composers, are worth more than any asshole who tells you your work is worth nothing.  It is NEVER worth the experience. You already have the experience. You are an artist!   You must be paid, IN HARD CASH, every penny you are worth.   The greatest example to emulate, who would tell Maggots to f*** off, is Bernard Herrmann, the divine inspiration of all true film composers.  His salary was often the biggest single item in the budget. 

  • M
    M
    http://www.symphonicuproar.com/audio/FILM_COMPOSER-The_Phoniex.mp3 (with live orchestra, granted I had to use a lot of synths to make it sound this good) http://www.symphonicuproar.com/audio/FILM_COMPOSER-All_Synth_Demo.mp3 (the original mockup) William, I wish you'd keep inflammatory, slanderous and untrue remarks, at least about me, to yourself. I thought we had agreed to that? I can't take time to explain this situation to you but you couldn't be further from the truth I am afraid (about me screwing people).