@Another User said:

A Mac Pro 2.66 GHz/9 GB RAM with OS 10.4.9 and Logic Pro 7.2.3 was used at NAMM 2007 and Musikmesse Frankfurt at our booth for presentations. A complete orchestral arrangement was played on this machine, consisting of 22 Vienna Instruments instances (approximately 250-300 voices) and CPU load was at 30 % per core and it worked perfectly.

How much you can actually load depends on your resources. However, VSL-VI is set up to theoretically load in a lot more than what tends to be physically available on any one system. One will sooner find the limits of their computers before they find the limits of VSL-VI.


4) Roughly running VI in my 8 core mac pro with 8 GB memory, how many 2.66 Ghz PC's with 2 GB is this the same as running vienna?

Certainly, memory plays a part, but it's not always a one-to-one ratio where performance is concerned. There are benefits to using more than one machine because the CPUs are devoted to different tasks, different hard drives and their busses are dedicated to their own tasks.

But with today's machines, I wouldn't recommend settling for less than 4GB installed. Your DAW *can* access *up to* 4GB, probably a little less. Your OS will need about 512MB to run, so by the time you are done with the DAW and OS, you could easily have only 1GB remaining to deal with the samples where a machine with only 2GB is being used.

Granted, it works well, and Jerome has put some Mac Minis to work in this respect (8 or more!). Others are using PC farms with 2GB, but there are limits on what can be loaded into 2GB and certain limits inherent in the OS and hardware-- for now.


5) And finally (I bet your glad!!!), how much memory can vienna access on my mac? I read that until the 64 bit version of mac OS and a 64 bit version of DP and vienna is released, the full 8 core will not get used? Also there is a limit to how much memory can be accessed?

If you could answer these last few questions, I would really appreciate it!!!!!!

How memory is used and how CPUs are used are two different things.

VSL-VI, OSX, and DAWs on the Mac are 32-bit apps. This means that any single 32-bit app can access *up to* 4GB of memory. Running a host outside of your DAW can make good use of memory over 4GB, so if you have 8GB installed you could run instances as plugins in your DAW's mixer while you also run a second host outside of your DAW and route the audio back into your DAW for mixing. You could also run standalone instances outside of your DAW to make more use of the 8GB RAM.

As far as CPU goes, all Cores will be working to process data running on your entire computer.

But one computer will not do it all. Again, there are the issues of voice limits (300 voices seem to be something you can expect, according to Maya--- maybe more?), hard drive seek and transfer times, buss bandwidth, etc. There are a lot of factors at play that impact on what you can do.

It's nice to know, however, that with the top-line MacPros you can do substantially more that you could ever do on PPCs.

I hope this helps explain things in basic terms. I'm sure the VSL team and other members might have more to say on this.

simsy, as any other 32bit app VI is limited to 4 GB, in reality a little bit less ... and yes, VSL is planning to relase 64bit versions.
unfortunately VSL currently does not offer educational discounts.

jwl, thanks for stepping in - i couldn't find the exact number of tracks and might have exaggerated the number of instances used, but 30 seems thoroughly realistic in certain cases.

as a sidenote: didn't you notice a loss of performance using 9 GB (4 x 2GB + 2 x 512MB) compared to 8 GB?
christian

Hey, JWL

Thanks alot, that was really great information!!!! I am thinking that I might just purchase the vienna stuff I want and stick to the mac for now and if the need arrives start adding PC's using Midi over LAN. Vienna is cross platform compatible? (if you purchase sya strings you get the windows exe and the mac version)

@Another User said:

as a sidenote: didn't you notice a loss of performance using 9 GB (4 x 2GB + 2 x 512MB) compared to 8 GB?
christian

A loss? Good question.

What I notice more is the substantial improvement over performance with my G5 2.5 PPC Dual with 8GB installed.

The jury is still out on the MacPro. I've read that one should install RAM in "fours" for the best performance, but I've yet to determine if I've actually seen 8GB performing better or 9GB performing worse. There's something in this that doesn't make sense.

So far, I don't see any difference. If you have some specific numbers on this from real-world experience, I'd appreciate any info you'd have to offer.

That I can run more than 6 instances (as I could on my PPC) is cause for celebration. That this number has increased by a factor of almost 5 on the MacPro has had me smiling since the day I got VSL-VI installed.

@Simsy said:

Hey, JWL

Thanks alot, that was really great information!!!! I am thinking that I might just purchase the vienna stuff I want and stick to the mac for now and if the need arrives start adding PC's using Midi over LAN. Vienna is cross platform compatible? (if you purchase sya strings you get the windows exe and the mac version)

Very cool, Simsy.

Yes-- VSL-VI is cross-platform, Mac and PC.

Midi over Lan is a good thing! [[;)]]

Yeeha!!! Off to see what I can afford now!!! Thanks very much to cm and JWL for all your help, it has been great!

JWL, yes the macPro board and several intel boards are almost identical - AFAIK they use the intel 5000X chipset, which has a special way of accessing memory modules - every two sticks (dual channel) at two branches, only *symmetric* placement results in best performance

i have posted this specs formerly:
http://vsl.co.at/upload/users/449/dualchanneldualbranchmemory.png">
christian

Thanks, CM.

I saw that before getting the MacPro, but at present I've not noticed a performance difference in real-world usage. That's not to say it's not real, but perhaps I've not pushed my MacPro to the point where any benefits would be apparent.

In fact, I'm only on my third cue on the MacPro using the 9GB. What I might do later this week is to remove the 2 x 512 and report back to you any differences I've seen.

It seemed essential to at least install a matched set of four RAM sticks (2GB each), so that's what I started with.

I can't find the Apple Developer document at the moment, but the issue of not mixing DIMMs of different sizes and speeds seemed to be limited to pairs and not for the entire system. Some of the information on this is not entirely clear, and some reports even from Apple appear to raise as many questions as they answer.

As mentioned, performance on my G5 2.5 Dual PPC was woefully disappointing. I have no complaints so far with the way things are running on the MacPro. I'm still not sure that any differences have yet revealed themselves on my system as being significant.

Have you done any personal testing to confirm the specs you've posted?

chris kardeis confirmed a macPro with 8 GB performed better than one currently holding also 9 GB using it with logic and *real projects* (not just with testing routines like i could), i've just been curious if someone with the same config can confirm this too or if it is just an accidental effect.
christian

Ah!

Well, better performance is always welcome. I will remove the 2 x 512 to see what happens, and will report back soon.

Thanks.

To get more out of your RAM it is possible to run the VI standalone as well as the plugins in the sequencer. This allows you to use more of your memory.

I've just been testing this and it works with Logic, I assume it should with DP.

@petethomas said:

To get more out of your RAM it is possible to run the VI standalone as well as the plugins in the sequencer. This allows you to use more of your memory.

I've just been testing this and it works with Logic, I assume it should with DP.

Yes, this is an increasingly common practice, and it is even possible to run several standalone instances concurrently.

More to the issue, one would think, however, that having 9GB of RAM available would benefit this practice. But according to cm's report, the irony is that 8GB is allegedly 'better' than 9GB.

@petethomas said:

To get more out of your RAM it is possible to run the VI standalone as well as the plugins in the sequencer. This allows you to use more of your memory.

I've just been testing this and it works with Logic, I assume it should with DP.

Yes, this is an increasingly common practice, and it is even possible to run several standalone instances concurrently.



How do you get more than one standalone?

Currently I'm routing the output to Mac digital out, then that goes back into a Logic track via my Apogee Ensemble optical in. With more than one standalone, I wonder if there is a way to get more than this without buying another interface.

Making a copy of the standalone app itself will allow you to run more than one instance.

Check this thread for more information on standalone mode:
http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?t=9801

Let me add that going from 9 GB of RAM to 13 GB on my Mac Pro 8-core really helped (even though apps can only use up toi 4 GB). VSL uses memory apart from DP, as confirmed in Activity Monitor. WIth 9GB, I had no free memory left with my setup which was DP, 24 instances VSLs (almost all Matrix Universals), 3 Kontakts, 1 Stylus, 4 Altiverbs, 1 Ivory, 1 Absynth. DPs CPU meter would redline. Now with 13 GB, no problems. Will go to 16 GB in a weeks to avoid having the odd number of RAM modules -- if that makes a difference, I'm not sure.

Hi

Where is the best place to order vienna instruments from? (Price wise) I thought I could order them direct from here, but I can't see anywhere to do so?

Also, does anybody know where the best place is to get more RAM for my 8-core mac pro? What is the exact memory I need?

Finally, does any body make 10,000 RPM hard drives, over 100GB that fit the mac pro?


Any help would be greatfully appreciated!!!!!!!

@Another User said:

Finally, does any body make 10,000 RPM hard drives, over 100GB that fit the mac pro?

Yes. Western Digital 'Raptor' 150GB. That's about as large as 10k drives come at the moment.
LINK: WESTERN DIGITAL RAPTOR 10K 150GB

@garylionelli said:

Let me add that going from 9 GB of RAM to 13 GB on my Mac Pro 8-core really helped (even though apps can only use up toi 4 GB). VSL uses memory apart from DP, as confirmed in Activity Monitor. WIth 9GB, I had no free memory left with my setup which was DP, 24 instances VSLs (almost all Matrix Universals), 3 Kontakts, 1 Stylus, 4 Altiverbs, 1 Ivory, 1 Absynth. DPs CPU meter would redline. Now with 13 GB, no problems. Will go to 16 GB in a weeks to avoid having the odd number of RAM modules -- if that makes a difference, I'm not sure.

Gary:

This is good information. I plan to go to 16GB in preparation for Leopard and certain other plugins from East West, who appear will be *among* the first to release 64-bit virtual instruments.

I'm glad to finally hear someone else report that VSL uses memory apart from that which is used inside DP.

I've never had a single CPU spike, although in DP I often get a solid red line on the playback engine during the first run down after booting up. After that, things have been okay.

Curious-- I removed 1GB of RAM (2 x 512) this morning. I've been working for several hours and have not noticed any difference when using 8GB or 9GB. Still, I'll pack up the 2 x 512s because I have someone who wants to buy it. I figured that it would be incentive to move ahead with 4 more 2GB sticks.

Hi

I looked at the raptor and it isn't a 3GB transfer, it is only 1.5 GB. Is there any that have the 3 GB transfer?

i currently don't know any drives at 10.000 rpm except the raptors - but be assured: it is enough ... 1,5 Gb/s = ~200MB/s, nothing the drive will ever give you ...
there are some SAS drives (serial attached SCSI, which basically is compatible to sATA2) at 15.000 rpm, but i doubt they are compatible with the sATA2 ports on the motherboard and AFAIK the largest available are 73 GB
christian