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  4. Midi workflow - what approach do people use here?

  • Midi workflow - what approach do people use here?

    P
    P
    Hi there,
    I've tried out a number of workflow approaches with VSL and was wondering what other composers have discovered works best for them.
    VSL - as we know - provides configurable controller setup, including keyswitching.
    However, personally, because I don't tend to play performances in live (I notate), I don't find live keyswitching beneficial.
    As a result, the midi-note 'corruption' is not only messy (especially when I do an auto-transpose), it also doesn't easily indicate to me what articulation I am currently using. A large orchestration becomes unwieldy as a result and doesn't shout back at me what it is doing at any moment in time...
    So - I was considering using folders (I use Cubase4) and having a separate VSL instrument per articulation, per instrument. Each instrument would then be folded into a single instrument folder, each articulation being assigned a different track. So, for flute legato and stacatto, I would have two tracks, which when folded, would appear as a single track. But when unfolded, it is immediately obvious which articulation is playing when.
    I was wondering if anyone else here has used such a technique or whether they had any better suggestions of approach?
    You could argue that by using a different VI for each articulation, you don't allow VI to shut off releases when moving from one articulation to another, but I'm not sure if this would be an issue anyway...
    I would welcome people's input here.
    Thanks
  • C
    C
    Hi Paynterr. As regards keyswitches, if you used MIDI CC messages instead you wouldn't get any unwanted notes in your score.

    Your suggested Cubase set-up sounds supremely logical (providing the Cubase folder system allows each track within a folder to operate on a separate MIDI channel), but there is a technical drawback: if you use a separate VI instance for each articulation it will tend to put quite a strain on CPU, especially in a large orchestration.

    Using the VI in the way its designers intended gives you up to 144 possible articulations on one MIDI channel, a very powerful and flexible system. When a switch command occurs the GUI instantly changes to show the new articulation, so although it's sometimes hard to keep track of the MIDI CC data you can always see the currently active articulation on screen.

    >You could argue that by using a different VI for each articulation, you don't allow VI to shut off releases when moving from one articulation to another

    I don't think that's a problem: the release samples are triggered automatically when notes end, the only way you could prevent them from sounding would be to write ridiculously long notes into your score!

    Whatever approach you decide to try, good luck with it.
  • D
    D
    You can switch releases on and off on the fly using a controller of your choice.

    DG
  • H
    H
    You can organize in one instance 1728 different articulations (Patches), and each of these articulations can also be stacked with multiple patches.

    For Matrix switching you can use keyswitches or program changes,
    for cell switching you can use any controller of your choice.

    best
    Herb
  • P
    P
    Thanks for the reply.
    I currently use keyswitching... but it was more a question of how to better visually manage the articulations when looking at n tracks. For me, using controllers makes it less obvious what is happening.
    My point about using different tracks (within folders) for different articulations (for the same instrument) means that it is more obvious when one is changing articulation, plus using things like random midi length/position/velocity for quick 'humanisation' is easier this way.
    I understand that this is not how VI were designed, however.
    I was wondering what other composers preferences were and what they found the most useful in terms of speed of workflow and visually being able to determine when an instrument changes articulation. Managing a large orchestral score is difficult enough without being able to easily see the articulation changes.
  • C
    C
    What is MIDI CC data?
  • C
    C
    It's the name of the data that is imputted when you use your modwheel or other controllers to control midi information (such as panning, volume, crossfades etc).
  • C
    C
    OK, thanks. So why would this be better than keyswitching? And why would you get unwanted notes with keyswitching? Just trying to understand, here.
  • C
    C
    I use keyswitches.

    But some would consider CC to be better as it's not visible in the score. That's what people mean with unwanted notes - that if you sequence some music and record keyswitches, these keyswitch notes will show up if you print the score, or look at the sequenced data. Since I don't print my scores, it's no problem using keyswitches.
  • C
    C
    OK, thank you very much.
  • D
    D
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    @Christian Marcussen said:

    I use keyswitches.

    But some would consider CC to be better as it's not visible in the score. That's what people mean with unwanted notes - that if you sequence some music and record keyswitches, these keyswitch notes will show up if you print the score, or look at the sequenced data. Since I don't print my scores, it's no problem using keyswitches.

    if you don't want to see the keyswitches then just hide them in an unused "voice".

    DG
  • C
    C
    >I was wondering what other composers preferences were and what they found the most useful in terms of speed of workflow and visually being able to determine when an instrument changes articulation. Managing a large orchestral score is difficult enough without being able to easily see the articulation changes.

    Personally I rely on looking at the VI's display and seeing which articulation is currently active, but I agree it's hard to keep track and maintain an overview. In Logic's arrange page a single track's data can be cut into different regions which can be given different colours - you could use blue for legatos, red for staccatos, etc. (Maybe we could all agree on a General MIDI Colour code? [[;)]] )
  • H
    H
    As a generic point about using large templates, it's really up to you which way you organise yourself. I use folders too, for big layouts, and it seems to work ok. For a quick draft however, i use a simple layout with 4 or 5 articulations per section (strings) put through Kai's performance tool, lashed to a selfbuilt soundbank that lets me work at speed, and doesn't tax the laptop too much. And as i do 90% of my work now in Logic's score editor (cos i learnt much recently, lol) I've hooked the performance tool up to show in the score editor as a 'real score.'

    If i'm then to go to work on the nuances at a deeper level, i then export the midi to one of 4 orchestral templates (by section) and concentrate on getting the best sound i can with what i have.

    This seems like a convoluted process, but i would think with VI's, you could scale this down considerably, and the option to have a 'real score' with switched artics would be extremely useful.
    As a matter of interest, can you assign keyswitches to your qwerty keyboard at all?
    I did this myself, and it really got things moving at a better rate. Right down to note selection on the numerical keypad. (Understanding of course you'll still need the modwheel/controllers on occasion.)

    By the way, how's the score editor in cubase these days? Last time i looked, (Cubase 5) it was completely horrible!

    Finally, i'm rather old fashioned with inputting, preferring a predominately manual approach, so take it with a pinch of salt, as i tend to worry over every note!
    (Comes of not wanting to waste valuable parchment when i was a student.)

    Good Luck,

    Alex.
  • C
    C
    How do you hook the performance tool up to show in the score editor as a 'real score'?
  • S
    S
    I don't know if it could be interesting for someone, but I made a module for Plogue Bidule which allow you to forget the keyswitches :

    Bank change : Matrix
    Program Change : Keyswitch

    And i've made some shortcuts and macros for Cubase/Nuendo :

    ctrl+alt+ F1 to F12 : Select Matrix
    ctrl+alt+ 1 to 12 : Select Keyswitch

    Imagine a VI instance with

    Matrix 1 : Violins perf universal
    Matrix 2 : Articulation combi

    Let's say you want to use the perf universal sound and then, tremolo for one note.

    - You select the first note, press Ctrl+Alt+F1 -> Perf universal (you don't need to select a keyswitch).
    - You select the first tremolo note, press Ctrl+Alt+F1 then Ctrl+Alt+5 -> tremolo
    - You select the next note, and press Ctrl+Alt+F1 -> Perf universal

    Advantage :
    - You don't have the keyswitches in your score
    - You can move you're playback cursor where you want and always have the correct sound selected

    Disadvantage :
    - You must use Plogue Bidule to host your VI

    I'm sure it's possible to build a midi vst plugins to replace the bidule module, but I don't have the knowledge and don't have the time to learn it.
  • S
    S
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    I'm struggling with this right now. The problem with Keyswitches is not only do they show up in the score, but you have to start playback before a keyswitch event for the articulation to be correct. It would be ideal if keyswitches could be selected by MIDI channel, but I can't figure out how to do this. The other problem with keyswitches is that they aren't constant -- they move depending on the instrument range. I know one guy who uses a Lemur to send MIDI CC, with custom buttons for articulations. I wonder if I could do this with something more affordable, like a Novation Remote Zero.

    @Another User said:

    I made a module for Plogue Bidule which allow you to forget the keyswitches :
    Bank change : Matrix
    Program Change : Keyswitch


    Are you using the "Multi Message Remapper" in Plogue to convert program changes to notes?

    I'm using Logic for sequencing, and can't figure out how to send a program change from a key command. But between the Logic Environment and Bidule, there's gotta be a way to do this. [:)]

    The other system would simply be to create several VI instances and channelize them through MIDI channel filters in Bidule, but I assume that one keyswitched instance is more efficient than multiple instances running one patch each.

    Time to do some research...
  • S
    S
    I also realize that I can use MIDI CC to switch cells, but I need to find a controller to send static MIDI messages. If I want 8 violin articulations available, for example, the mod wheel may not be precise enough to select them.

    Thinking out loud, setting the keyboard F-keys to send MIDI CC would be the solution. Time to figure out how to do this in the Environment.
  • M
    M
    Hi all,

    It seem that nobody never used this:

    Please note that the Matrices of a Preset can also
    be switched with MIDI Program Changes 101–112 instead of keyboard notes.

    Very useful

    Ease and not bothering in score!

    Hope to help!
  • S
    S
    I researched the Logic environment for a few hours on Sunday, but I couldn't find a way for the USB keyboard to control the environment. So I decided to go with three instances of each string instrument, except for the basses which have no legato in the Appasionata library. I'm switching between cells with the mod wheel.

    Violin 1: VI20-Perf_Stac_fa, VI20-perf-legato_4vel, and then I set the A/B switch so the mod wheel all the way up gets portamento (three articulations total)
    Violin 2: same as Violin 1. Fortunately, this does not seem to take up much more RAM
    Violin Poly: VI-20_perf-rep_spi, VI-20_sus_Vib, VI-20_tremolo, VI-20_pizz

    I used this same system for the Violas and Celli. All of the instruments are loaded in Bidule on a Core2Duo. I'll load GigaPulse VST on the machine tonight for pre-processing before it gets to Logic for final mixdown.

    The only disadvantage so far is that Logic resets the mod wheel to 0 automatically, so each time I start recording in a new section I need to wiggle the mod wheel to get the correct articulation. It seems like a good template to start with and I'm already busy writing. [:)]
  • D
    D
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    Hi paynterr,

    I use Sonar6 Producer.

    I create 2 tracks for each VSL VI. Both midi tracks are linked to the same VI instance and channel #. One track is for the composition, the second track is for all my controllers. Since both tracks are pointing to the same VI instance the VI receives messages from both tracks.

    Each time I input a midi controller on the 2nd track I split and rename the resulting clip to whatever the controller does. So, on the 2nd track I will have my controllers, each as a separate clip that I name as the controller or articulation.

    Whenever I want to see the score I can select only the tracks I want to see. In this case I don't select the 2nd tracks of each VI so I only see the music, not the controllers.

    I have been working like this for years with all my VI's and softsynths.

    Hope that helps.

    David

    @paynterr said:

    Hi there,
    I've tried out a number of workflow approaches with VSL and was wondering what other composers have discovered works best for them.
    VSL - as we know - provides configurable controller setup, including keyswitching.
    However, personally, because I don't tend to play performances in live (I notate), I don't find live keyswitching beneficial.
    As a result, the midi-note 'corruption' is not only messy (especially when I do an auto-transpose), it also doesn't easily indicate to me what articulation I am currently using. A large orchestration becomes unwieldy as a result and doesn't shout back at me what it is doing at any moment in time...
    So - I was considering using folders (I use Cubase4) and having a separate VSL instrument per articulation, per instrument. Each instrument would then be folded into a single instrument folder, each articulation being assigned a different track. So, for flute legato and stacatto, I would have two tracks, which when folded, would appear as a single track. But when unfolded, it is immediately obvious which articulation is playing when.
    I was wondering if anyone else here has used such a technique or whether they had any better suggestions of approach?
    You could argue that by using a different VI for each articulation, you don't allow VI to shut off releases when moving from one articulation to another, but I'm not sure if this would be an issue anyway...
    I would welcome people's input here.
    Thanks