MacPro, anyone?

[JWL]

Okay-- there has been so little info on the MacPros that I simply had to ask a few more questions.

1. Are the MacPros such a none issue here that they are discussed so little here?

2. Does anyone have any detailed specs to share-- instance counts, performance issues pro and con? All I've read is that the Intels are a little better than the PPCs using VI. That is to be expected-- but the last Mac to have been officially cited was the 2.5 dual

No one's talking at all!!

I need details. I need to know about these alleged performance boosts or optimizations with RAM installed in 4s rather than 2s. I'd like to know about the reported speed bump with 6GB of RAM installed-- and how all of this translates into the performance of VI.

From OtherWorldComputing:

"FB DIMM technology takes advantage of multiple channel access. Apple recommends the use of 4 or more [identical] modules to take advantage of this 256-Bit Wide memory architecture.

From my Apple rep:

The intel machines need ram installed in pairs, but even better performance occurs when installed in groups of 4 of the same size. There is a known "speed bump" that is crossed over 6GB of RAM - it operates optimally....

I'm just curious as to how all of this translates to VI performance, but it seems that all Mac reports came to a grinding halt after the 2.5 Dual G5, a machine that was completely discontinued 8 months ago.

From appearances, it's easy to assume that the Mac is all but dead where VI users are concerned. But I'm interested in numbers at the moment if there are any.

Does anyone have any numbers to share? [:'(]

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

I dont' sorry. I already have an 8gb 3.0 Quad heading my way, I dont' have any worries. I've always been happy with Apple.

However, I will say that Hetoryn has commented about his new mac on his pod casts, and he says he can run about 32 tracks pretty comfortably, and it's not even taking up most of the processing power.

[plurye]

<<However, I will say that Hetoryn has commented about his new mac on his pod casts, and he says he can run about 32 tracks pretty comfortably, and it's not even taking up most of the processing power.>>

32 tracks of... what? Is that 32 instantiations of VI?

I'm in the odd position of using my G5 as my master computer and am using my dual 3.0 Intel Mac with 9GB of RAM (2 4s, 2 512s) as a slave for Vienna. I can try to be more exact, but I've loaded DP on the slave Mac (as a standalone) with 17 instances of VI, plus I have 6 standalones open on the slave (with plenty of room for more standalones). I've gotten VSL server up to about 3.4 GB, after which it crashes if I try to load more.

I did a quick 8-bar test sequence with lots of notes and controller moves. Even with my DP "work percentage" at 99% and latency on my Profire Lightbridge at 256 samples, the processor usage meter is slammed in the red the whole time, but I'm not hearing problems (again, this is with DP as just a plug-in host, and Pro Tools as my sequencer from my G5). That said, I'm still really in set-up mode, haven't done serious "field testing" yet. I may also try deactivating release samples from at least some of the VIs.

JWL - Hope this helps - would also love to hear about the experience of others.

PL

FYI

[Jack Weaver]

Plurye,

I'm reading your posts with some interest. My next rig will be not too far from yours in design. Shortly I want to get a Mac Pro and use it as the master for my G5 dual 2 Gig. Mainly I will use the Mac Pro for VSL sample playback and the G5 will be used for playback of Kontakt2, Halion, etc. (Additionally the G5 will remain the home for a Pro Tools HD rig - but I plan to run that standalone at different times from the networked Logic setup.)

After asking around some, my present plan is to get a network switch, MoLcp3, host the slave VI's with one of the versions of Logic, use some program like Synergy for KVM sharing and use audio interfaces w/ multiple LitePipe i/o's.

In the short term I'm not expecting a significant increase in the numbers of VSL VI's I can access simultaneously on the new Mac Pro. Sure, I'll be able to do more with two computers than just one. But I'm looking at the Mac Pro as part of a larger picture that will eventually allow me significant increased RAM utilization. OS 10.5, 64-bit sequncer optimization, etc. in concert with the new hardware is what will hopefully give us what we want.

I do hope that you can find some numerical data that shows how much the Mac Pro alone helps that process. I'd be very interested in that. I'll follow along with your posts to see what's happenin'.

[JWL]

@plurye said:

JWL - Hope this helps - would also love to hear about the experience of others.

PL

yes-- yes-- yes-- thanks-- thanks-- thanks

Just seeing conversations about VI with the MacPro once again is encouraging-- and having some more specific numbers is particularly revealing. The entire topic was rather non-existent around here where computer horsepower to run the Cube is paramount. Seemed very odd in many ways.

I'd gotten the impression that the MacPros were only marginally better where instance counts were concerned compared to later model G5s. I, too, and interested in gathering all the information I can from MacPro Tower users who are running VI Cube. It will really make a huge difference as to what MacPro I add-- how many I add-- and when I add them.

While the 2.66 has an attractive price, the 8MB L2 cache on the 3.0 is a big plus-- it's twice the size of the 2.66's 4MB L2.

Also, the recent goof-teaser on Apple's UK site which listed an 8-Core as an option to be ordered appears to be an indication that the 8-Core is closer to an imminent release that we may have suspected. If this machine could push the 3.0's 32 instance count up to 40 instances, then this is the machine I should wait for. I already have two other machines running instruments at this time, but it's far from ideal.

Again, thanks to all for contributing to this topic. Do keep us posted of your developments!

Cheers,
JWL

[cm]

@Another User said:

While the 2.66 has an attractive price, the 8MB L2 cache on the 3.0 is a big plus

uhh - where have you read about this? the specs in the apple store don't list that explicitely ... just 4 MB shared cache is mentioned
christian

[plurye]

Jack -

I'd love to know to what extent running DP as a full DAW (not just a plug-in host, as I'm doing) will do to the maximum VI count you can achieve. At some point I do want to go over to using the Intel as my master machine. Also intrigued by your idea to continue using your G5 as your Pro Tools HD host - I've been contemplating the same thing, since I'm so sick of shelling out money for PT hardware which only kinda sorta works with DP (despite what DP says). My idea may be even more complex - ultimately, when using DP as the master on my Intel Mac, I want to use my HD Accel 3 system on my G5 as a slave rig (i.e., superpowered plug-in and non-VI inst host), and the reverse when working in PT (i.e., continue to use the G5 as my master for PT and the Intel Mac as my plug-in host). I'd have to figure out how to make my hard drives easily switchable between the two machines, among many other things. And also load up on Advil before I try it ...

Re easing the transfer to 64-bit, this was part of my thinking. But the realist in me ain't holding my breath - as someone (I believe Jerome?) pointed out, first Leopard has to come out, then the hosts have to be updated, then plug-ins have to be updated. By then, our current Mac Pros will probably be quaint...

JWL -

I'm intrigued by the 32 VI plug-in count mentioned in an earlier post. With current RAM limitations that works out to an average of only slightly over 100 MB per VI, i.e., mighty few articulations. Still, would love to know more.

Also, wondering what other people's experiences are with using DP with the processor slamming into the red. Makes me nervous, even though I'm not hearing a problem.

PL

[plurye]

Jack -

Rereading your post, I realize that you use Logic, not DP, btw. Just thought I'd point that out.

Oops,
PL

[JWL]

@Another User said:

While the 2.66 has an attractive price, the 8MB L2 cache on the 3.0 is a big plus

uhh - where have you read about this? the specs in the apple store don't list that explicitely ... just 4 MB shared cache is mentioned
christian

It says "4MB shared per processor". I and a friend have been hitting Apple for info by phone-- as they explain it, 4MB shared means one double core uses a 4MB L2 cache.

The "per processor" wording was why we pursued the matter further-- it wasn't 100% clear, but it didn't stop at saying the L2 cache was simply 4MB. Twin dual CPUs = 8MB total, shared in 4MB allocations.

Now-- according to the basic site specs, this is true of all the Pro towers, but Apple distinguished this by phone. I could have also spoken to a total moron-- and that I could be a total moron myself is not out of the question...

[JWL]

@plurye said:

JWL -

I'm intrigued by the 32 VI plug-in count mentioned in an earlier post. With current RAM limitations that works out to an average of only slightly over 100 MB per VI, i.e., mighty few articulations. Still, would love to know more.

Also, wondering what other people's experiences are with using DP with the processor slamming into the red. Makes me nervous, even though I'm not hearing a problem.

PL

PL-- I'm a DP user, so I'm not only keen to learn more about VI on a MacPro, but the VI-MacPro-DP combo is of deep interest. I'll pass along anything reports for the sake of discussion.

[JWL]

CM--

In addition to the info mentioned above, I also found this info online:

Memory
RAM (installed) 1 GB
RAM (maximum) 16 GB
Cache Memory (installed) 8 MB
RAM Technology DDR2 SDRAM

http://www.macconnection.com/ProductDetail?Sku=6317121

I'm still trying to sort out some of the other misinfo, but it's hard to do on a Sunday night... more soon...

By the way-- this is among the many reasons why I'd hoped for more discussion on the MacPros here where VI Cube is concerned-- there are lots of questions that need to be answered and have never been brought up...

It's all in an effort to get to the truth... just honest curiosity seeking satisfaction, is all.

Peace,
J

[cm]

i've just been curious about the 4 vs. 8 MB cache thing, because i don't know about a possible new processor-line and all woodcrests (aka xeon core 2 duo) have 4 MB shared cache, whereas the clovertons (aka xeon core 2 quatro) have 2 x 4 MB cache (assumably each 2 cores sharing one cache)
generally i'm not very happy with the lack of precise specs on the apple website (chipsets, bus-speed, memory timing, ect), too often one had to rely on third party information or find it out the hard way by oneself ...
as an example it is not at all clear to me which chipset would improve performance if 4 banks of same memory is used opposed to *normal* paired sticks and i can only assume it is the intel 5000X ...
if this is the case than i don't understamd why we don't have the option to choose between PCIe 16 lanes and PCI-X 100/133 MHz as other servers offer - selecting a soundcard is currently somehow painful (either for the quality or for the pocket)
christian

[cm]

... but to step in to the original topic: the intel macs are significantly more performant than the G5s, although i'm convinced one could get even more out of it using some hand-tooled compiler-options (and loosing the universal binary thingie)
there are not such detailed performance reports as for earlier macs, because i'm not willing to purchase some *newest mac* all three months and we don't have our hands long enough on certain models to check out everything in detail. also the machines are so d***d fast that one had to play around a while with various harddrives and soundcards for a while to locate the current bottlenecks.
christian

[JWL]

@Another User said:

as an example it is not at all clear to me which chipset would improve performance if 4 banks of same memory is used opposed to *normal* paired sticks and i can only assume it is the intel 5000X ...
if this is the case than i don't understamd why we don't have the option to choose between PCIe 16 lanes and PCI-X 100/133 MHz as other servers offer - selecting a soundcard is currently somehow painful (either for the quality or for the pocket)
christian

From what I can determine, the 5000X would be that chipset-- only because it was after the release of the 5000X that the recommendation for RAM sticks in 4s emerged. Even there, some people were under the impression that this was to the exclusion of installing sticks in pairs, but this now seems to be untrue.

Even so, there are no specs that I know of that show any benchmarks to illustrate the performance benefits. One would *think* that any performance benefits such as this would be a serious credential for the sake of selling a better Mac.

And yet, I found it most interesting that the Apple rep continued to refer to the difference between the 2.66 and the 3.0 as a 4Mhz bump in CPU-- where it's only 3.4Mhz. It may be a small exaggeration, but even with the law of averages, that number would be rounded down to 3Mhz and not up to 4Mhz. In the context of what this difference might benefit VI Cube, I've yet to get the sense that it would matter very much at all for the difference in price.

But, I hope we can get to the bottom of these issues with continued discussion by sharing out knowledge, gathering a diversity of information, and filtering out the facts from the fiction.

These are good machines-- and I am encouraged by Sonrise's expression of a lack of regret for having a 3.0. It would be nice to compare the 2.66 with the 3.0 to further determine the differences in performance.

I, too, have been happy with Apple overall. I'm just not pleased with some of the confusing and cryptic data they share these days

[plurye]

I was trying to get fancy and post an image of my "about this Mac", to show the specs re backside cache. Then I realized I didn't know how to include an image in the post - can anyone explain?

Regardless, it lists:

Machine Name: Mac Pro
Machine Model: MacPro1,1
Processor Name: Dual-Core Intel Xeon
Processor Speed: 3 GHz
Number Of Processors: 2
Total Number Of Cores: 4
L2 Cache (per processor): 4 MB
Memory: 9 GB
Bus Speed: 1.33 GHz
Boot ROM Version: MP11.005C.B04
SMC Version: 1.7f8

For what it's worth, there it is.

[JWL]

@plurye said:

For what it's worth, there it is.

...and it's worth a great deal, plurye!! Thanks so much.

I just got similar specs from another friend who has a 2.66:

Machine Name: Mac Pro
Machine Model: MacPro1,1
Processor Name: Dual-Core Intel Xeon
Processor Speed: 2.66 GHz
Number Of Processors: 2
Total Number Of Cores: 4
L2 Cache (per processor): 4 MB
Memory: 2 GB
Bus Speed: 1.33 GHz
Boot ROM Version: MP11.005C.B04
SMC Version: 1.7f8

Another engineer/friend of mine who JUST got his 3G two days ago is now returning it. He bought it on the premise that the 3G's L2 cache was the other major difference from the 2.66 based upon printed material from his rep. This is turning out to be untrue since it seems ALL of the MacPro's have the same L2 cache size... which is 2 x 4 MB = 8 MB.

So far, there is no other difference between the 2.66 and the 3.0 except for the reported 3.4MB bump in CPU clock.

Thanks again! This feels like a very healthy discussion already!

[JWL]

@plurye said:

I was trying to get fancy and post an image of my "about this Mac", to show the specs re backside cache. Then I realized I didn't know how to include an image in the post - can anyone explain?

The image would already have to be posted elsewhere on the internet.

Given that, open the image in a separate browser window and copy the address.

In the forum message composition window, use the IMG tags-- starting with ''

For example, quote this very message and study the code used to post this image...

http://www.sweetwater.com/images/items/VISymphCube.jpg">

[sgentry]

@JWL said:

So far, there is no other difference between the 2.66 and the 3.0 except for the reported 3.4MB bump in CPU clock.

I think the difference is actually 340MHz, or about 13%.

Steven

[plurye]

@JWL said:

For example, quote this very message and study the code used to post this image...

Thanks - I've copied the message to my computer for future reference. And while we're at it I'm attempting to quote some text from your message, which is something else I've been unable to do before now!

PL

[JWL]

@JWL said:

So far, there is no other difference between the 2.66 and the 3.0 except for the reported 3.4MB bump in CPU clock.

I think the difference is actually 340MHz, or about 13%.

Steven

Ooops-- what was it I said about my being a moron? [:P]

Mhz, not MB to start-- sorry.

Darn decimals: .34Ghz w/ factor of 1k = 340Mhz

Thanks for the correction!

Okee-dokee...

Is the difference of 13% on the 3G enough to matter compared to the 2.66 where loading VI Cube instances is concerned (given 4GB of RAM or more are installed on both machines)?