@Felix Bartelt said:

Wouldn´t this kind of answer the question about relative levels quite easyly at least for this song?

No. I can't recreate or repeat the situation of how a song was mixed. A console automation of a specific song is erased no later then when a new mix is set up. We do not work with the latest consoles where everything can be recalled, we work with the console which has the best sound and this models are a little older.

In a DAW the measurement could be excuted. But I doubt that the measured values could be of any use for a new original work. An recreating an older work it would be more efficient to put a good recording on track one, and mix the mock-up until you reach about the same mixture as the recording.

The level of any instrument in relation to another instrument is changing very fast. A written down level value of two or more instruments is only valid for a few milliseconds. I don't see any standard there who could be put to a table. Not as a engineer nor ass a composer I think in fixed mixtures. In other word, the level of the french horns in relation to a string sections is different and unique for each situation and point in time. One time the french horn is louder then the strings, another time it is way softer then the strings; I can't see where a standard is in between that can be fixated in a table.

There are papers which deal with relativeand absolute levels in orchestra dynamics, but not in the sense to read out and writing down the loudness values for each track on a DAW. There is an important difference between absolute and relative dynamics. Every instrument has some relative dynamic control in every register. However, some instruments in particular registers simply cannot achieve certain absolute dynamics: A group of brass playing in their high registers will never be very soft; a low flute can never be extremely loud. The best rule for a beginner is: orchestrate your dynamics instead of just writing them as textual indications. Especially at dynamic extremes, ensure that the instruments and the registers chosen are conducive to the dynamic level required.

As a rough guide, here is a table of what the various families can achieve in absolute dynamics:

http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk.o/o3.html

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@Angelo Clematide said:

 

In a DAW the measurement could be excuted. But I doubt that the measured values could be of any use for a new original work. An recreating an older work it would be more efficient to put a good recording on track one, and mix the mock-up until you reach about the same mixture as the recording.

Hey Angelo,

    I have read the thread and have to agree with the others. Perhaps barring a release by the VI Magazine guys I could send you Thomas J's article regarding relative dynamics in order to illustrate our point. In the article he accurately describes just how important this is. His piece 'Mojo Madness' serves as further proof of just how critical this is to achieve realistic mock ups.

    Rather than debating though the artistic/scientific integrity of a template I think it stands to reason to try to gain a rough estimate. As of now I and apparently others have been unable to find even the slightest documentation in this regard. I understand how many variables are involved when recording and mixing an orchestra. I know that nothing can stand as THE template but even a rough guide is a huge step in the right direction. Once a rough guide is established one can deviate as needed while always having a safe zone or as you put it 'guideline to avoid the chaos'.

    I think the proof is in 'Mojo Madness'. One point Thomas J makes that is very interesting is that most if not all orchestral sample library's are normalized. You already brought this up by saying a PPP articulation is the same loudness level as a FFF. This is why if one were to simply measure the FF of a tutti and write from that your orchestra would still be horribly out of balance. He goes on to illustrate more complex issues such as the flute being louder in one range and softer in another. 1 flute playing and 3 flutes playing etc. He does offer Expression loudness adjustments for such occasions which was helpful. I think for now though the complexity of those issues can be set aside and one can focus purely on the maximum loudness of each instrument.

    If you knew the maximum volume of each orchestral instrument in its normal context/setting (debatable again but evaluating every variable stiffles all but the smallest of progress) than you could use a simple mod Xfade patch to determine the dynamics of the instrument once the fader is set correctly so that the samples maximum loudness matches that of the said chart we would like to create.

    As I said and I'm sure Thomas J anticipated you will ALWAYS have the science/engineering/orchestration nerds who will come forward and throw this down as idiotic or nonessential or only 'theory'. I could see the point but Thomas J has alreayd put the pie in those peoples faces. Mojo Madness is proof that this needs to exist on some level.

    If anyone has the means to make this happen or know where we can find the data please call on donations or something. This would benefit the entire orchestral mock up community greatly.

Rob 

Hey Angelo,

I apologize if that was vague but I really can't think of a more thorough and to the point way of putting things. If the relative levels of all the orchestral instruments have been published could I ask where? What do you mean by 3-D plot?

That information is most certainly not education for all engineers. I can assure you that a very small percentage of engineers in the US know the information being discussed here. You may though already know of a source where we could get this information. Please specify the publication/website or whatever where this can be found. Better yet post the data that you have and know.

Thanks again and sorry for the confusion!

Rob

Rob,

I don't understand what you are talking about. It would be good if you could state what you are looking for and what purpose it should serve. I am sure that the data exists.

The relative levels of all orchestra instruments have been published many times, my table is from 1972. This knowledge is part of the education for engineers at every technical university world wide, respectively every engineer knows that information, if that is what you are looking for.

The 3d plots on the sleeve:

This book is a standard work every engineer knows, and a module at every university which educates engineers. Even my American Engineer has this book.

Angelo,

OK your editing your posts alot so i may be responding to things others may not be able to read but bare with me. The 3-D plot makes perfect sense based on the link you gave. Thanks a lot. If this information has been documented as described I really should riot at the schools in which I studied. I feel that this was completely ignored. I would love if you could post up any of these charts describing the maximum output level of each instrument in an orchestral context/seating in DB's. This would help me immensely in finding a common ground to start working from with sample slike VSL.

Thanks again!

Rob

Rob,

this publication has several hundret pages, and I can't scan the book to a PDF, I have no right to do that.

My edition is from 1972. Jürgen Meier extended the book in 2004 with room related information and with level information between orchestra and singer.

I am 100% certain that this knowledge is part of the curriculum at every university with a technical faculty, world wide.

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@CommanderFunk_28576 said:

OK your editing your posts alot so i may be responding to things others may not be able to read but bare with me.

Not that I do that on purpose, but the new text formating of this Message board does not accept the formating from my text editor WinWord

Angelo,

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that you would scan the entire book. I think all were asking for here is a small table of data. I guess it's common knowledge and I don't doubt you. Soooo if you could simply post a chart that would be great. One you've made or data you could simply type in. Either way it would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Rob

Oh and no problem about editing the posts thing. I just was worried you'd delete one I responded to and it would confuse the other readers. All fine though!

Angelo, what would be a "Standard work every engineer knows" in english be? Do you have recommendations of a book to buy? Thanks.

Colin Thomson 

@Angelo Clematide said:

Okay, let’s assume I would write down this level values for each instrument, for example from Hans Werner Henze’s Sinfonie Nr. 1. At what points should I measure the level, and how would you apply the collected data to your music?

 

@Felix Bartelt said:

Quite easy: Imagine, you are Hans Werner Henze, standing in front of the orchestra, ready to start playing. Then U say: "Stop! I want every single instrument or section (such as the HO-4) play its loudest note allone!" Result: If the VI-16_mV play the loudest possible G3 at - 13 db, the VA-10_mV reach a peak of - 16 db, the single horn reaches - 20 db and so on. If U transfer this situation to your setup: U have everything set to start composing (all volumes, reverbs, pans, etc.). Even if U plan to automate your volume faders afterwards, it is still a setup, U consider to be a good mix to start with, no matter what velocity the single instruments might play later. So as soon as you are confident with your mix, stop it at any time of your work to check, what maximum peak every single instrument is able to play. Then all people like me would have something very good to start with, because I would just have to adjust the volume levels. In my situation, not knowing the relative levels, I might set the HO-4 volume fader too loud and later on balance that in a false way by letting them play mf instead of ff. Do you see my point?

A-HA - We are not talking about the same matter.

I see now what you mean, but that is what we call absolute dynamic (Felix sez: "play its loudest note"). But there is a difference between absolute and relative dynamic.

Relative dynamic of a musical instrument is the total loudness range. For example measured over the full range, and each step played as soft as possible plus as loud as possible. This aquired dynamic data can be presented in envelope graph (for example as in Jürgen Meie book "Akustik und musikalische Aufführungspraxis"). This data helps the engineer to place the microphone at the proper spot in various recording situations.

There are several reasons why relative and absolute dynamic data would be unsatisfying in build a dynamic orchestra default setting. One of the main reasons is what is called "distant cue in closed rooms" - this is the spatial information stored in a stereophonic recoding who tells us how far away the source is.

I agree with what Felix is asking for. I don't think Angelo has this information though. If he did he would have simply posted it by now. The debates about WHY this information wouldn't be accurate or helpful are drifting further into obscurity. If anyone does have this information though please share it with us. It would be enormously helpful as many have pointed out.

Thanks!

Rob

@CommanderFunk_28576 said:

I agree with what Felix is asking for. I don't think Angelo has this information though. If he did he would have simply posted it by now. The debates about WHY this information wouldn't be accurate or helpful are drifting further into obscurity. If anyone does have this information though please share it with us. It would be enormously helpful as many have pointed out.

Thanks!

Rob

No, I don't have this information. I think nobody ever made this measurements.

I guess what you want is, that some one writes down the values from the software meter for each orchestra instrument playing the loudest possible sound when the recording setup is one stereo microphone in a concert hall. The measurement in the mentioned book "Akustik und musikalische Aufführungspraxis" is not made in that way, but each instrument is measured from same distance, similar as the VSL samples are made.

.

Hey Angelo,

Those measurements may be useful though as well. VSL was normalized so your data would be very helpful. You could calculate the diff. and let the panning/narrowing reverb etc take care of the rest. It would require more tweaking but what you describes sounds like it would be great!

Thanks again!

Rob