Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

184,753 users have contributed to 42,369 threads and 255,368 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 3 new thread(s), 8 new post(s) and 66 new user(s).

  1. Home
  2. Orchestration & Composition
  3. Your Music
  4. Setting up a Standardized Wide Range Dynamic Environment
  • A
    A

    I have no secrets, nor do I think that anyone else here makes a secret out of how he mixes.

    Some of you asked for "relative levels," of which they where not able to define what it is, and at the end I found out, that the only thing they wanted to know are the levels when someone mixes a mock-up with VSL samples.
  • A
    A

    "There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."

    - Steven Wright (1955-), comedian
  • F
    F
    Even though it might be adressed to me, I like that slogan. Anyway, since I´m not to familiar to all the terms, sorry for the wrong term and the discussion it might have caused. In order not to have more misunderstandings: I´m just interested in the peak value at the master output of the single intstruments. I´d be grateful, if someone could post them.
  • A
    A
    last edited
    last edited

    @ColinThomson said:

    Angelo, what would be a "Standard work every engineer knows" in english be? Do you have recommendations of a book to buy? Thanks.

    Colin Thomson 

    There was a book we called the "Studio Bible," published in the seventies, I lend my copy I bought at the Opamp Technical Bookstore in Hollywood to some r&b producer and never got it back, the titel of the book was:

    "The Recording Studio Handbook"

    by John Woram

    Hardcover, 1976

    Plus

    "Microphone Handbook"

    by John Eargle

    Elar Publishing, Plainview NY

    "The Cameo Dictionary of Creative Audio Terms"

    Published by Framingham. MA

    Paperback, 1979

    ...of course all lend out to some r&b producers and bnever got them back.
  • C
    C
    Felix: Sorry that you don't like hearing the "same arguments" again, but if they're true, then it doesn't matter. I don't disagree with your points except for #1: ALL, not just some of the VSL are out of calibration with each other. ---------------Choosing a high level for the VI-16 in your example #3 is an aesthetic choice, totally valid. If done cleverly, this can expand the sonic palate of the library. ---------------Comparison mixing is the way I work. There is no secret except that I start with levels very low (-20). I use Lots of volume automation. Lots and Lots. Also I use no compression on orchestral samples unless it is mild distortion to excite the sound. ---------------I hope this helps a little. Sorry you aren't getting the answers you want. Clark
  • C
    C

     Clark, interesting that you say you use lots of volume automation. I always thought this would take away from the overall realisticness of the VI samples. They are sampled with crossfades from PP to FF (or so). What is the use of automation? If you bring the volume up on a mp sample to bring it to around F, won't it sound strange to have something playing at that volume in the mix, yet with the sonic quality of what would normally be quieter? What is the use of volume automation (with VSL in mocking up a real orchestra), and how and why do you use it?

    Angelo, thanks for those book recommendations. I will take a look at them.

    Colin Thomson 
  • C
    C
    Colin--Great questions. A few reasons why I use a lot of volume automation (instead of velocity): -----1. Balancing each note of a chord or texture. -----2. Creating a subtle movement within a note or phrase. -----3. I layer solo strings "inside" ensemble patches, bringing them ever so slightly in and out to create timbral shifts to enhance #2. -----4. mp patches at louder volumes can sound "larger" or "thicker" than their f counterparts, thus making them an option when mixing for a particular sound. Careful, though, because this can throw the mix out of whack if it messes up the perspective or context of the mix too much, as you correctly point out. -----5. I tend to avoid crossfade patches unless I'm making a fairly bold move from one layer to another (to avoid the doubling/phasing effect). For more subtle swells or dynamics, I will use #3 combined with a gentle volume curve on the main ensemble patch (or just use the dyn patches if I'm not using perf_leg). -----Hope this helps, Clark
  • C
    C
    I use a lot of automation but it is very subtle. No crazy volume curves or anything. I believe that, tastefully done, subtle automation can really breathe life into longer notes without having the phasing from the x-fade patches, and also helps to eliminate the "organ" effect that plagues sample mock-ups.
  • C
    C

    Certainly some interesting things there for me to try. I just haven't yet been able to play around with VSL enough to try out all these things. Will have to try what you said about layering a solo patch in an ensemble and moving it around slightly in the mix. Thanks for the tips.

    Also on the mixing levels, do you (or anyone) wait until you have everything programmed in the mix? I heard someone say that they try to keep the levels around -20 db just to start out with enough headroom, and then mix later. I always have a hard time knowing if things are working out if I haven't mixed it, yet it seems that a starting point where everything is the same would be helpful for mixing. So I guess I am just asking at what point in the production process you start mixing.

    Colin Thomson 
  • F
    F
    last edited
    last edited

    @clarkcontrol said:

    The only other exception is if you want to emulate a particular recording.  To which I say, Listen, Listen, Listen.  Take the time to get the same reverb, e.q., DYNAMIC RANGE, and everything else.  Then make a template from that that says "John Williams Jaws Temp" or whatever.

     

    Liberty and Freedom for all!

     

    Clark

    Hey Clark. Sorry to repeat myself. This is exactly, what I try to do. And it works quite o.k with the reverb and eq as soon as I find a sequence in the recording, where the instruments play solo. But still for me the big problem of the dynamics remain. If I don´t know, if an instrument is playing p or mf or ff or if it is even doubled by another instrument, which I´m simply not able to hear due to my limited knowledge about orchestra music, how can I tell the dynamic range? So since you might have tried to get the sound of a certain song, would you mind telling the song and the single master output level peaks (at one point of the song, e.g. a tutti chord)? Once again, most of us are beginners and would not consider this as THE template for orchestration, but as a starting help to get a slight feeling of how loud single instruments should be in one special type of recording.
  • A
    A
    last edited
    last edited

    @ColinThomson said:

    So I guess I am just asking at what point in the production process you start mixing.
     

    Here, mixing is an extra workflow.

    After the composition and the editing is finished, all virtual instruments are bounced/rendered to seperate 24-bit wav/aif files, this with an uniform headroom containing the optimal S/N ratio. During composition and editing I have only one reverberator running, if any at all.

    Then load the audio files in a new project and set up the mix.
  • C
    C

    I wish I could mix like Angelo; this is more in line with pros who have a separate mix engineer to take care of the technical stuff.  Plus, you save CPU resources by splitting the process in two.

     

    I consider the mix and composition process one and the same.  Part of this is because I am always thinking of the end product at the beginning and part of this is because I can’t stop tweaking the arrangement until the final bounce—Ha!  Seriously, though, I am always trying to get the most realistic or appropriate sound possible so I am always working in context.

     

    Ah, context.  This is why nothing is sacred when dealing with mockups.  Film scores can have a dynamic range as little as 20db.  Hans Zimmer strings sound and behave way different than John Williams strings.  If you’re using drum loops w/ orchestra a la John Powell that’s another thing also.

     

    Felix—I always keep an eye on the main meters of my mixer when casually listening to music.  This way I can reference dynamic range in a technical sense without being obsessive, I am just making dynamic associations to what I am hearing.  I also have quite a few conductor scores (for inspiration) that I follow when listening to Holst, Strauss, etc. to further refine my perception of what I hear (or think I hear) versus what is actually there.  Lots of CD’s sound really “blendy” making it hard to pick out what is happening so having music in front of me really helps.

     

    Otherwise, I try not to worry about these things in a technical sense because I’m going for a SOUND, not writing for real orchestra.  That’s why sometimes I will use the wrong dynamic patch and mix it down or up, or compress or exaggerate the dynamic range in order to get the music to “sound” right behind dialogue and FX, etc.

     

    Colin—I always start low with levels (-20db for mp patches, -15db for f patches, higher levels for perc) then use the master fader at the end to bring peaks up to -3db.  Also I will tweak crescendos and general dynamics towards the end.  Don’t be afraid to use extreme e.q., either (or distortion, as I mentioned earlier).  As soon as I think that something is off limits mixing-wise, I know I’ve limited myself and the expressive potential of the virtual orchestra.

    Clark
  • F
    F
    Seems like I won´t get help in my request for single peak levels. Even though I still did not get the real reason and specially don´t understand, why some guys prefer to spend so much more time in discussing, if it would be useful or not, instead of just taking two minutes and tell us the peaks, I will stop aksing for it. Thanks anyway for all other hints.
  • A
    A
    last edited
    last edited

    @Felix Bartelt said:

    Seems like I won´t get help in my request for single peak levels. Even though I still did not get the real reason and specially don´t understand, why some guys prefer to spend so much more time in discussing, if it would be useful or not, instead of just taking two minutes and tell us the peaks, I will stop aksing for it. Thanks anyway for all other hints.
     Measuring Project: VENI  VIDI  LOCHNESSI  LOUDNESSI  et  VIOLINI  sur le nom de  F-E-L-I-X

    Okay Felix, this weekend I measured the data you requested on the mock-up of Sergei Sergeyevich Prokofiev's Sinfonie Nr. 1, D-Dur, Opus 25, "Symphonie Classique," composed 1916, which I made for exercising purpose.

    I will post the result tonite, or not later then tomorrow.

    .
  • F
    F
    That would be really cool! Thanks a lot!
  • A
    A

    Power Measurement
  • A
    A

    .
  • A
    A

    Felix and Rob

    And now, please tell us what you do with this data, respectively how you apply it in a useful manner.

    Angelo
  • C
    C

    Interesting numbers.

    This is assuming your mock-up is completely indistinguishable from a real orchestra, dynamic-wise. (And then what orchestra would that be?)

    I would like to hear the mock-up(s) to determine if the dynamics and balances between instruments are realistic to my ears. Do you have an mp3 that you could post?

    Clark
  • C
    C

    I'm guessing that the first measurement would be more interesting/useful. The second measurement is peak readings derived from the entire movement?  If so, I don't know if that would mean much to me.

    Clark