Wow Jay - you have outdone yourself on this one. I haven't even gotten to William's yet (but will soon). I am sure it will also be wonderful.


Jay - can you give me some insights how achieved any special 'tricks' you have done to get this beautiful sound (what combinations of solo, chamber, AP - to get what 'effect', etc.) I have ocassionally used solo OVER AP to get that a tad more 'personal'. It is that sort of thing I am looking to learn from this mock-up.

The sweeping sections are obviously AP but even on those did you also 'double' them with Chamber, etc. ( I thought I heard it - could be wrong)


Thanks for any further help you can be. Listening to this huge piece as I type - really wonderful Jay.



edit: Very nice work William. I especially liked the Reverie piece. There is simply not another sample library that can get this convincing of a 'performance'. Thanks for sharing with us.

Rob

The VW is wonderful. A Great piece given a great performance. There realy is nothing to detract from this rendition. This performance stands up to any real orchestral recording. Brilliant.

William - really liked the march - comparable to Edward Gregson i thought and just as good. - You should make a version for British Style Brass band with optional organ and I'm sure it would be very popular.

How much would it costs to hire you guys as my peronal VSL trainers and can you find time to pop over to north London say once a week.

PS - William what brass was included - was the euphonium in there? - are you allowed to say - I see the instrument list is missing from the demos zone - you can tell me I promise not to tell anyone else!

William-- your recent descent into the world of Mars has leant a wonderful bellicose mood to your march. I hear Roman battles, gladiators, or in our kinder, gentler times maybe the Olympics. Rousing! Gets the blood boiling. [:D]

The reverie is delicate and haunting. Its sounds more expressive and subtler to me this hearing than several months ago. Am I correct in assuming that you've revised it since then or am I just enjoying it more this time round?

Best,
Jay

I have to say that Reveries is a really beautiful piece.

Great stuff Jay! I knew you were going to come out with something amazing after that long silence...

I'm assuming it's a mistake with the 2nd composition by William, we do mean "Debussy's" Reverie... On the mp3 link there's the same mistake.

As Herb said, Jay's performance is a masterpiece. I am blown away by it. Wow! I feel he displays as much musical feeling as any great conductor of this incredibly beautiful music. I kept thinking of the mighty, windswept, magnificent vistas and landscapes of Vaughn Williams while listening, instead of samples. What a tremendous demo of strings! How could there be anything better? The range of expresson in this is simply huge, and Jay handles every bit of it brilliantly. I thought that about his Ravel string quartet, but this is beyond that. Jay is now competing with himself, because he is in a class by himself. And if anyone doubts the expressive power and natural sound of VI strings, this is maybe the ultimate test.

thanks for those comments on my pieces. On the march which is an old piece of mine written in 1985, there is no euphonium, though I am looking forward to it too, Dave. I kidded you about that in the past - sorry! I am just as maniacal for that as well as bass flute so I am a total hypocrite. Also, this is already scored for a rather reasonable brass ensemble and was played live a few times - (edit) but the live players were not as good as samples. [[:|]]

Jay, Bill,
excellent performances from both of you.

After what seems a relentless time of discussions about sampled strings and their use since at least the '80's, these demos show just how much progress has been made, not only from developers, but users, as they hone and refine their skills, learning to use these instruments. It would be fair to say from listening to these demos in particular, that you've both mastered these most challenging and oft difficult instruments in writing for these types of works. I was blown away by the meticulous attention to detail, and without losing the 'humanity' of performance, always a formidable task when performing with sampled instruments.

Jay,
The expression you've imparted in this reflects your maturity as a performer. I've listened to all your work here at VSL, and been in admiration of your growth as a performer, not only in handling samples, but performing with them. The variability in string section tone often apparent in performance is often ignored or neglected by users of sample instruments, but it's obvious you've worked at this performance to a much finer degree, and it 'shows' aurally. An excellent performance indeed.
My admiration and respects to you.

Bill,
As one fortunate enough to have heard all your public work, including outside of the demos here, i'm constantly amazed at your creative perception, and willingness to push the boundaries of what is currently accepted. The March has a fundamental instinct to it, that steps away from what seems a modern desire to slather everything in pads of sound. There's an elemental structure to the march that appeals to me, and stripped of the pad sound, shows not only the tonal excellence of the brass, but your own performance and musical craftsmanship. It's a bold move to include the organ, as, and of course you know this, the brass and organ don't always sit together easily as partners. I've often considered one asset of the concert organ as a 'turbocharger' within an orchestra, for those moments when you need to hit the 'Big Tonal' button, and like you, would use it without hesitation or uncertainty if the occasion called for it. You've demonstrated that here, with challenging and provocative 'statements' to give a profoundness to your work.

The reverie is simply delightful, and shows yet another aspect of your musical craftsmanship. From Mars to the March to this performance of Reverie, and the wonderful Elegie, among many others, i'm in admiration of your fearless breadth of determination to challenge yourself in many styles and genres (to use overworn descriptions) and your handling of the instruments that, although sampled, have no less significance as instruments to be learned and whose parameters are to be explored.

To both of you, and outside of the excellence of the VSL instruments (a given in my opinion) i continue to be amazed and delighted at your skills as performers, and with Guy, TJ, Alex Temple,Miklos, and many others, you are fast forming an elite that provides a worthy yardstick for those of us with more modest sample performance skills to chase, and if possible, exceed, not in unworthy envy, but with the aspiration and enjoyment of increased knowledge, and the pursuit of ever higher standards of excellence.

Hearty respects and regards to you both,


Alex.

Thanks everyone!! [:D] I slaved and obsessed and bleed over this so I'm very happy that you have found some nice things to say about it. Very appreciated!

Rob-- All of my "tricks" can be seen in the midi file and VSL VI presets here:

http://www.vsl.co.at/admin/downloader.asp?file=/data/Sounds/MP3/VI_DEMOS/14_Appassionatas/JB_Fantasia.zip

I layered solo string with Appassionata for the main orchestra throughout. The solo strings are generally about 16 db's lower than the Appassionata. But for the expressive divisi passages I made the solo strings only about 9 db's lower than the Appassionata.

I used Chamber layered with solo strings for the second smaller and more distant orchestra. To simulate the con sordino sections of the second orchestra I used a low pass filter to cut the highs.

I used the Amsterdam Concertgebouw IR in Altiverb far cardioids. For the Appassionata Strings (and the layered solo) I actually used very little reverb-- about 18% wet. For the distant chamber strings I used closer to 70% (with layered solo strings at about 30%).

I also created many combination Appassionata patches to simulate stronger and pronounced bowing techniques. For example:

harsh+legato
staccato+dim 2 sec
stac+detache

If you want to know anything else just ask.

Alex-- thanks for commenting on the colors of the different sized ensembles. This is one of the many things I love about the piece-- the intimate quartet, the sweeping main orchestra and distant and almost church organ-like quality of the smaller second orchestra.

Best,
Jay

Outstanding Jay - thanks for the extra time telling us your work methods.


Rob

Hello Jay,

the strings' ensembles movements are very well done.

I am curious to know your reference recording for this piece.

I totally agree with you concerning the layering technique
but on the foreground
i always layer
chamber and solo strings only,
leaving
appassionata on the background (quieter).

I am still not a fan of Altiverb though.

What a perfectionist you are.
Bravo.

Thank you.

Thanks Iorenzo. I have literally about a dozen recordings of this work but 2 of my favorites are conducted by Barbirolli and Marriner.

Best,
Jay

yes a masterpiece of writing and sampling I agree completely.

There are other forums where people say that appassionata isn't worth the money. Well....I think this demo could change their mind. If they say it doesn't sound realistic compared to most libraries they are smoking something harsh.

I'd give Jay's work a 96% on what sound realistic through the entire piece. Especially do a common listeners ear.

I guess what' I'm trying to say is "DAMN GOOD JOB JAY"

Amazing musical and technical effort, Jay. Bravo! I can't stop listening to it. We are really close to the point where great sample libraries and greatly talented users will be capable of better performances than average-skilled and not-so-well-recorded orchestras. I never thought I'd say that.

Great job.

I haven't listened to William's cues yet, but will do so very soon.

Alex - thanks a lot! Also Rob and mathis!

On that march I forgot to mention one thing tht Dave brought up - the instrumentation is for a relatively small group of 3 trumpets, 2 horns, 3 trombones, tuba and percussion. After all the discussion of DVZ, and having seen the video, I have been thinking more about the question of artificial doubling of player numbers with chords. So I decided to tryand be "pure" on this piece. It has no doubling at all. I have 5 trumpets total, and when the scoring is broken into a three note chord, it is five trumpets, when they are playing unison it is five trumpets. etc. Same with trombones and horns, though I used the 8 horn ensemble simply because the Epic horns are so awesome. So this is just as "pure" as any DVZ performance you will ever get, in both articulations AND player numbers.

" We are really close to the point where great sample libraries and greatly talented users will be capable of better performances than average-skilled and not-so-well-recorded orchestras. I never thought I'd say that. " - Luca A

Actiually we are already at that point and somewhat beyond. This piece was played live by respectable college student players on three separate occasions. The VI samples (not necessarily my performance but the samples) are far better. Trust me on that one [8-)]

I've been trying to download the mp3 from

http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=12&DemoId=5007

but keep getting an error message - is this link broken?

hmm ... i'm getting simply nothing .... what does the message say?

meanwhile please use this link - right or ctrl click and select *save as* to download

although the file is 27 MB this shouldn't prevent the download ... possibly some kind of corruption about which the player does not care ...
christian

It says:

"The page cannot be displayed
There is a problem with the page you are trying to reach and it cannot be displayed.

HTTP 500 - Internal server error
Internet Explorer"

A classic error message, I think you'll agree - crushingly boring, yet totally informative. Thanks for the link - a player opens and I can hear the music, but I'd prefer to download the file and listen to it offline.

as mentioned ... right (=win) or control (=mac) click the link and select *save as* from the context menu ...

but thx for the errornumber ... it points into a direction i've already assumed ... not too boring for me [;)]
christian