Alborada:

I really dont think the SE is comparable to the Cube and I don't think that the SE's appearance at about 10% of the cost of the full Cube is simply a story of the kind of depreciation that affects the world of high technology. It's a differet animal. After all you could get a large library of sampled orchestral instruments for $200 with the Garritan Personal Orchestra, or an even larger one from EWQLSO (Gold and Gold XP bundle) for $900. But these are not the same as each other or the Cube or the SE. According to Herb the SE is sampled in whole steps rather than in 1/2 steps, the Bösendorfer in the SE has about 10% of the content of the original, there are fewer velocity layers, etc. Where the SE might come in handy for Cube owners is that it allows one to take one's work along when traveling and one might also be able to use it in combination with the Cube to conserve computer resources - - e.g. there might be places in even a very sophisticated mockup that don't require the kind of variety (and, therefore, RAM footprint) the Cube provides. If you bought a real Steinway grand, I don't think you'd be upset that, besides building great pianos, Steinway is collaborating with Garritan to provide an "offical" Steinway sample library for $200. It will, no doubt, sound pretty good, but will it be the same as a real 9' Steinway Concert Grand?

The SE is a GREAT deal.

However, one of the greatest acheivements of the VI is the programming of the repetition performances.

SE does not contain these and it is a shame; it would be the main reason I would buy any VSL VI. As a result, I cannot see getting this package unless I needed to work off of a laptop for basic sketches, and I don't even have one.

For the same(ish) money I would rather upgrade just my Chamber Strings Horizon to VI...

You gotta see it for what it is.

Clark

The performance legato patches do have legato repetition samples included.

best
Herb

Hi alborada,
Your luck will sway both ways, meaning that some purchases will feel poorly timed, and others finely timed. In the long run, the bumps will even out. The cube is better and you will never have to have doubts. So, try to forget this specific episode and make some music to feel better.

alborado, you don't sound like a spoilt child. I'm just trying to give the Zen perspective. [:P]

@Another User said:

On the other hand, Nick, the 7' Steinway B (made in 1897) that I bought in 1980 for $900 (!!!) is now worth over $80,000! Unlimited polyphony and dynamic range too. Nothing beats those acoustic instruments!

Where did you find that piano for $900?! It must have been a fluke, and you must have done some work on it if it's worth $80K. My mom had a Steinway baby grand around that vintage, but it had simply worn out and the overhaul it required wasn't worth doing. She ended up replacing it - with a larger Steinway grand that I actually don't like as much; she has a second Steinway grand next to it that's less controlled, but it has a lot more character. (No, she doesn't play with her feet - she teaches. [[:)]] )

My big problem with acoustic pianos is that they lack the MIDI In my keyboard skills require. [[:)]]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

My big problem with acoustic pianos is that they lack the MIDI In my keyboard skills require. [:)]

Have you tried a Disklavier?

DG

Herb,

So sorry to not be clear: yes the legato repetition samples are included and that is important.

I was referring to the SHORT note repetitions. As First and Pro Edition (and Horizon) users are aware, the repetition tool has always been the most difficult to tame until the brilliant VI player.

It is the feature I lust after the most.

Clark

I see myself using this not solely for sketches, but also for solo woodwinds in particular for final compositions.

Nick:

I was walking down the street in Boston past M. Steinert and sons, the official Steinway dealer in Boston. in the window was a sign advertisng a Steinway B for $900. As you might imagine, I suspected that this must be a piano that came in several bags of parts, but I went inside and had a look. It was a little beaten up and the soundboard had numerous cracks - - only one of which rattled (it had spent most of its life at the New England Conservatory where, when I was student in the preparatory division, it was customary to heat the place to at least 80º F during the winter). So, realizing that despite its worn condition, this piano was the deal of the century, I bought it on the spot - - instantly emptying my bank account.

About 3 years later, the pinblock cracked - - one morning I sat down and played the first chord of the day only to observe the pins merrily twirling as the strings unwound. I called the piano technician at Juilliard whom I had known when I was grad student there, an elderly - - and saintly - - German fellow who always arrived to tune pianos in something close to black tie. After examining the piano, Herr Barth offered to replace or fix everything that needed replacing or fixing for the cost of the parts - - and to lend me a piano for free for several months - - just, he said, because he knew me and knew that I was a struggling musician who would not otherwise have the means to get my piano repaired!!!! The only condition was that no other technician be allowed near the rebuilt piano for a period of 5 years.

I, of course, was incredibly grateful. As a result, the rebuild - which took several months - was infinitely cheaper than it would have been had I had to pay the going price. (It cost about $2000 - paid in installments). As for the piano's present value - - that's what it was appraised for by my current technician. I don't plan to sell it ever.

All this informed me that amazing luck and absolutely extraordinary acts of kindness and generosity are indeed possible... [:)]

I can understand someone's consternation at spending a lot of money for any product that is the only thing available and forces the purchaser to but way beyond his actual needs. Then being bummed out when a product does come out with the basics he needs and at far cheaper price. The problem is that VSL is first and foremost a comprehensive library for those that want all that is offered in the complete cube. If SE was releasd first than you would have all kinds a disappointed people asking for a more complete library. I think SE is great but I see all the things that aren't there for my needs. I may pick it up to have some important basic instruments I don't have but it's no replacement for the individual collections that are vital for the pro user.

Since VSL has already shone that they eventually release paired down collections such as Opus I, I would have settled for that package and waited for it's VI counterpart if I was okay with just a wide ranging basic library.

Remember all the VSL protestations that "their are no plans to release a VI version of Opus 1-2" ????

This special edition looks pretty close and even better in some respects.

Great story, Steve.

You were in Boston the same time I was, by the way.

@Another User said:

Have you tried a Disklavier?

Yeah, I thought about that as I posted. That would solve the MIDI in problem, but it would create two others: 1. I'd be broke; and 2. I'd be even broker after adding onto our house to make room for the piano,

[H]

i don't think this is about high technology prices, this is about the fact that the special edition clearly is priced *relative* to it's content as directly *compared to* the full VSL. It does not devalue the full version whatsoever, it is *derived* from it. I dont' think there is anything negative about this package, it is naturally a progression of what VSL CAN release given it's resources at one time. first do the full package, then release the scaled down version, it's a natural progression, I don't see any fault lying with VSL whatsoever, far from it, it's an excellent product many people have asked for and will be happy now that it is here. [:)]

Miklos

@stevesong said:

On the other hand, Nick, the 7' Steinway B (made in 1897) that I bought in 1980 for $900 (!!!) is now worth over $80,000! Unlimited polyphony and dynamic range too. Nothing beats those acoustic instruments!

Please Stevesong, come on !, you compare your very old and small Steinway with a young, (less than 10years old) one [[;)]]
You're mistaking it with a Concert Grand - Model D
http://www.steinway.com/steinway/specs/model_d.shtml">http://www.steinway.com/steinway/specs/model_d.shtml

That one worth $80,000 (not new)

well, i'm a opus 1 user on gigastudio 2 and i'm soooo happy that i can use the great VI interface soon with my old an new(!) samples.

and the price for opus 1 user is really a gift!

thanks to the vsl team

Straying even farther, I wonder whether the reason the newer Steinway doesn't sound as exciting as the older one is because they don't make them as well anymore, or just because pianos improve with age as things warp and settle.

Or whether this particular one just happens to be on the tame side.

Laurent:

If you go to http://www.steinway.com/steinway/specs/model_b.shtml you will learn that the Steinway B is not so "small" but at 211cm (6' 10-1/2" inches) long is the second largest of the American Steinway grands - - the Steinway D Concert Grand (274cm /8' 11 3/4") being the largest. The Model C is larger (227cm/7'-51/2") than the B, but, according to the Steinway website, is available only from Hamburg.

As to the value of my piano, I simply quoted the appraisal made by very respected technician (formely a Steinway Concert Artists tech). Maybe he was wrong, but my insurance company accepted it. It doesn't matter otherwise as I never intend to sell this instrument.

Stevesong, I'm sure your Steinway sound very well and the most important is that you like it.
Maybe I refer too much to the Steinway PIanos of the Mannes College of Music in NYC.
As you know most piano buit a century ago have a great sound but nothing common with the actual technique. Maybe that's a question of taste…

Laurent:

My piano is more than 100 years old but it has an accelerated action from the late 1940's and relatively new hammers. What I've discovered is that if you have basic instrument that is good what you need is a great technican who will work with you to achieve the sound and keyboard response you want. A piano is not condemned to have one kind of sound or one kind of response - - almost every aspect of its performance can be modified. My technician asks me: "Do you like the action as it is or would you like it to be heavier or lighter? What kind of sound do you want in the bass, midrange, treble? What tuning do you want?" etc. People unfamiliar with what a truly good technician can achieve often think that a particular piano's sound and response are relatively fixed - - and that there is only one correct tempered tuning, but, in my experience, this is not so.

And, speaking age, would you characterize a 350 year old Amati viola or a 300 year old Stradivarius violin as very "old" - - with the implication that their great age made them less good than currently produced instruments? Like my piano, these instruments have been modified - - none, for example, have the original necks. (The original necks were much shorter than those used on modern instruments. Violinists and composers wanted to extend the high range of the instrument. To achieve this, the original necks were replaced with longer ones.)

The most magnificent viola I've ever heard is the Amati owned by Masumi Per Rostad, violist of the Pacifica Quartet. It is slightly larger than the standard sized viola (it was made before there was a "standard" size for the viola) but, despite its being over 350 years old, there is nothing geriatric about its huge and beautiful sound - - at least in Masumi's hands.