@Another User said:

I am familiar with those stories as well. And in regards to your words that what I said is wrong: I said almost . I am not wrong. You may have mistook me. But certainly all I was doing was giving an example for others. Do you live in Los Angeles? Have you spent a decade there? I am not sure you understand that the language of Le Sacre is what is spoken here. It is so fundamental that it is even a forgotten assimilation. In any event, we were talking about the Hollywood Sound, and it's only my interpretation on what you have said here, but I don't think you exude words that show much experience with it. Every LA musician in the union plays Le Sacre-like music natively. It's our language. (I'm trying to say this without giving any offense, because I think you are a very interesting person and I have very much enjoyed all your posts and sharing our experiences on the board together.)

Evan

No, I do not live in Los Angeles, I live in France, south of France, in the coutryside, when I am looking out the window, I do not see any skyskrapers, but cows, horses and beautifull threes. I am Swiss citizen and was born only about 120 miles away from the house the Sacre was written. I think I have to put this clear, because by reading your post, one could think the Sacre was composed in Hollywood, but it was not: it was written in Switzerland close to Montreux. I do not write this to offend you in anyway, but as an old man, I may know things, from first hand, better than you can.
Also the so called "technique" of the Sacre has to be looked at in very critical way, since I have heard personally Igor Stravinsky saying that he did not use any technique for the Sacre, but just did write down what he did hear inside. Of course he said this 50 years after having written the piece, so he may did not remember [;)] As for the Analizing of the Sacre, I do not think this is the exclusivity of Los Angeles. Actually from the Hollywood film scores I did hear, which are partly inspired and partly literally stolen from Sacre, I must say that I am not convinced at all. besides the fact that some of this composers are perect craftmans, it seams to me, that from a purely artistic point of view, they did (miss-)used this work for the purpose of sound effects, but there is absolutey nothing from the spirit and the genius of the music of Strawinsky in them.

I know that there some great musician in Los Angeles, and that for some reasons it is still the mecca of movies. But believe me Evan, there are also some great musician, as good as the ones in Los Angeles, in Vienna, Berlin, Amsterdam, Paris and in many other places........You are not the only one who seam to think that everything which has some kind of importance comes from Hollywood, and I finish my post by writing again: you are definitely wrong!

Iwan

@evanevans said:

As far as modesty goes, that has never been one of my traits. I love my music, I enjoy creating music that I love, I like myself, I like talking, and I like talking about myself, my music, and my innovative perspectives.

Hehe Evan, no need for all those words. The paragraph can be shortened into four words... "I am an American!" [:D]

All 300 million of us wear Bermuda shorts and Hawaiian print shirts, we're loud and obnoxious, we tell everyone our life story before saying hello, we treat people as our servants...and of course we all share the same appalling political views.

[[;)]]

@Another User said:

All 300 million of us wear Bermuda shorts and Hawaiian print shirts, we're loud and obnoxious, we tell everyone our life story before saying hello, we treat people as our servants...and of course we all share the same appalling political views.

Are all 300 million American now republicans........???? [:O]ops:

Are alle American now republicans........???? [:O]ops:

"The Hollywood Sound" - would you like to know how to get "The Hollywood Sound," all you would-be film composers out there? I'll tell you.

First of all imitate Tchaikovsky, Richard Strauss, Rachmaninoff, Shostakovitch, Schumann, Stravinsky, Ravel, Vaughn Williams and Holst. And throw in some Korngold - the "Hollywood Sound" from Austria. Then smear a huge romantic orchestration all over simplistic, saccharine chord progressions. Make sure you write for large ensembles, when a single solo instrument would be sufficient or better. (Then you'll really know you're "hot" like one of your idol film composers - because you can write for ALL THOSE INSTRUMENTS!) Finally, add a large, thick dollop of nauseating reverb. Presto - you've got it. You have a bright future ahead of you with...

"The Hollywood Sound."

I might have been facetious... [[;)]]

@Another User said:

since I have heard personally Igor Stravinsky saying that he did not use any technique for the Sacre, but just did write down what he did hear inside. Of course he said this 50 years after having written the piece, so he may did not remember [;)]

Also I think you mistook him. As a composer, I can see how such a simple statement as you have reiterated here can be mistook. perhaps he meant that the final concepts for the piece were very free-form, but in no way does that necessarily definitively say that he did not adhere to good orchestrational techniques. I know Stravinsky, his life, and techniques well, and I completely understand the nuances of what you are saying. It's true he could have been conglomerating some sounds structured on techniques he imagined, but a quick look at the score and how it relates to achieving great orchestration can quickly put to rest any speculation that he was being haphazard or free.

Continued below:

Continued from above:

@Another User said:

I know that there some great musician in Los Angeles, and that for some reasons it is still the mecca of movies. But believe me Evan, there are also some great musician, as good as the ones in Los Angeles, in Vienna, Berlin, Amsterdam, Paris and in many other places........

oh absolutely. But I can say with almost pompous certainty that they cannot do what the LA guys do for composers in the time and for the money that we'd like them to. I am sorry if that offends the notions you seem to be defending. Aside from specialists, non-LA musicians do not have a chance at the efficiency and compatibility with film composer's compositions, as a foreign musician. Even in the cases where a film composer is "patient" enough to work with a specialist from abroad, it is still at a great inefficiency in budget and schedule, that the composer has gladly worked into their budgeting and writing so that they can accommodate the more inefficient although more desirable musicians from abroad. Don't confuse quality with quantity. In LA quantity is king, and quality is merely a pawn that never gets used.

Continued below:

Continued from above:

@Iwan Roth said:

You are not the only one who seam to think that everything which has some kind of importance comes from Hollywood, and I finish my post by writing again: you are definitely wrong!

Oh my goodness. You are definitely wrong. Where did you ever ever read that I said that Hollywood is where important music comes from? Oh my goodness have you completely mistook me. Hollywood? Importance? That is laughable. I am chuckling. Wow. All I can say is YOU are wrong. And since the basis of what you said I am wrong about stems from myself, I can be the final judge of that statement. You are wrong about me, what I have said, and the presumptions you derived from me. I know this because I agree with everything you have said, because none of it is very correlated to what I said, and because at any time you say I wrong about something it turns out that I fundamentally contradict your statements that I am wrong on the basis that I am not what you said or have those thoughts or feelings or experiences.

So with all due respect, let's try to get off on the right foot here. Maybe you could start with what you thought I said was untrue about the Hollywood Sound. I'd really am open to hearing that as well as continuing this side-stepped misinterpretation of what I have said, but mostly I'd like to stay on th etopic of at least pointing out what is untrue about what I said about the Hollywood techniques.

Thanks,
Evan Evans

@Mattias Henningson said:

Hehe Evan, no need for all those words. The paragraph can be shortened into four words... "I am an American!" [:D]

Ha ha. So true, so true.
Evan Evans

@William said:

ould you like to know how to get "The Hollywood Sound," all you would-be film composers out there? I'll tell you. First of all imitate Tchaikovsky, Richard Strauss, Rachmaninoff, Shostakovitch, Schumann, Stravinsky, Ravel, Vaughn Williams and Holst. And throw in some Korngold - the "Hollywood Sound" from Austria. Then smear a huge romantic orchestration all over simplistic, saccharine chord progressions. Make sure you write for large ensembles, when a single solo instrument would be sufficient or better. (Then you'll really know you're "hot" like one of your idol film composers - because you can write for ALL THOSE INSTRUMENTS!) Finally, add a large, thick dollop of nauseating reverb. Presto - you've got it. You have a bright future ahead of you with..."The Hollywood Sound."

Some of what you say isn't far off. Well said. And it was relaly funny if you were trying to be sarcastic. if not however,

just to defend some of the notions you have set in motion (should any of tehm be taken seriously by anyone), imitation is relaly not what film composers are intending to do, or if they must do it as a requirement they are simply poorly executing the notion. On the contrary, imitation is when the Hollywood Sound works at it's worst. Perhaps to the layman it sounds great, but for anyone who knows better, imitation when thinly veiled or forcefully interjected becomes cheap and amateur.

The use of sacharrine chord progressions is not doing anything for the State of The Art of Film Scoring, and I think you are only pointing out again, what is described as bad film scoring.

Writing for large ensembles instead of smaller ensembles is absolutely true, but to say that small ensembles could have been better is inherently describing a compositional method that is easily delapotated and weak in design and execution. Again you seem to be intimating that the Hollywood sound is about writing bad music or music which is served better in less commercial ways. This is not helping set teh bar of film scoring very high. Just because 99 out of 100 film composers are doing what you said, doesn't mean that the Hollywood Sound cannot be achieved whilst being musically superior to another iteration of itself in some other permutation of ensemble size or passage complexity.

Knowing one is "hot" by sounding close to an idol film composer is destroying all that makes a great film composer great. Number one, anyone who tries to resemble an idol is not composing original music. So instantly you can check them off as non-original composers. How does writing for all those instruments validate composer greatness. It does not. Again you seem to be implying that the Hollywood Sound is about simplistic things such as simply writing for a lot of instruments. I hear what you are saying, but it's more about writing in extremes, which can inherently cause the music to need many bodies to achieve a non-obtrusive sound in the extremes.

uh, nauseating reverb? A large dollup yes, but do we have to say that the Hollywood Sound is achieved when we add nauseating reverb? On the contrary, film music is more commercial in some respects than classical, and if anyone is the judge as to what's decreed as nauseating it's a mnajority vote by a jury of your peers. It seems that the people who enjoy film music enjoy the reverb present on the majority of albums. Economics of the business prove this true by design.

it may be true that anyone that adhere's to your rules may have a bright future ahead of them. But they certainly wouldn't be considered top of the calss by any means. Your mentioend techniques of achieveing the Hollywood Sound point to a more cliché, tired, unoriginal, immature, amateur style of scoring, admittingly being carried out by the majoroity of compsoers. however putting it to teh test of a jury of it's peers (moviegoers), it seems that the most money in movies is made from movies that are scored by composers doing everything that you haven't said, and coming out brilliantly. Jerry Goldsmith, Bernard Herrmann, Don Davis, Hans Zimmer, Vangelis, ... these are the guys who are at the bar of the state of the art of film composing, or close enough to be forgiveable.

But I generally don't listen to anyone who isn't a hypocrite. So unless you've written some of this crappy music you speak of, I don't take anything you've said too seriously. Generally I prefer those who have learned from their mistakes. So let's hear some of your "mistakes". I'll show you mine if you show me yours! [:)]

Evan Evans

@William said:

would you like to know how to get "The Hollywood Sound," all you would-be film composers out there? I'll tell you. First of all imitate Tchaikovsky, Richard Strauss, Rachmaninoff, Shostakovitch, Schumann, Stravinsky, Ravel, Vaughn Williams and Holst. And throw in some Korngold - the "Hollywood Sound" from Austria. Then smear a huge romantic orchestration all over simplistic, saccharine chord progressions. Make sure you write for large ensembles, when a single solo instrument would be sufficient or better. (Then you'll really know you're "hot" like one of your idol film composers - because you can write for ALL THOSE INSTRUMENTS!) Finally, add a large, thick dollop of nauseating reverb. Presto - you've got it. You have a bright future ahead of you with..."The Hollywood Sound."

Some of what you say isn't far off. Well said. And it was really funny if you were trying to be sarcastic. if not however,

just to defend some of the notions you have set in motion (should any of them be taken seriously by anyone), imitation is really not what film composers are intending to do, or if they must do it as a requirement they are simply poorly executing the notion. On the contrary, imitation is when the Hollywood Sound works at it's worst. Perhaps to the layman it sounds great, but for anyone who knows better, imitation when thinly veiled or forcefully interjected becomes cheap and amateur.

The use of saccharine chord progressions is not doing anything for the State of The Art of Film Scoring, and I think you are only pointing out again, what is described as bad film scoring.

Writing for large ensembles instead of smaller ensembles is absolutely true, but to say that small ensembles could have been better is inherently describing a compositional method that is easily delapitated and weak in design and execution. Again you seem to be intimating that the Hollywood sound is about writing bad music or music which is served better in less commercial ways. This is not helping set the bar of film scoring very high. Just because 99 out of 100 film composers are doing what you said, doesn't mean that the Hollywood Sound cannot be achieved whilst being musically superior to another iteration of itself in some other permutation of ensemble size or passage complexity.

Knowing one is "hot" by sounding close to an idol film composer is destroying all that makes a great film composer great. Number one, anyone who tries to resemble an idol is not composing original music. So instantly you can check them off as non-original composers. How does writing for all those instruments validate composer greatness. It does not. Again you seem to be implying that the Hollywood Sound is about simplistic things such as simply writing for a lot of instruments. I hear what you are saying, but it's more about writing in extremes, which can inherently cause the music to need many bodies to achieve a non-obtrusive sound in the extremes.

uh, nauseating reverb? A large dollop yes, but do we have to say that the Hollywood Sound is achieved when we add nauseating reverb? On the contrary, film music is more commercial in some respects than classical, and if anyone is the judge as to what's decreed as nauseating it's a majority vote by a jury of your peers. It seems that the people who enjoy film music enjoy the reverb present on the majority of albums. Economics of the business prove this true by design.

continued below:

continued from above:

it may be true that anyone that adheres to your rules may have a bright future ahead of them. But they certainly wouldn't be considered top of the class by any means. Your mentioned techniques of achieving the Hollywood Sound point to a more cliché, tired, unoriginal, immature, amateur style of scoring, admittingly being carried out by the majority of composers. however putting it to the test of a jury of it's peers (moviegoers), it seems that the most money in movies is made from movies that are scored by composers doing everything that you haven't said, and coming out brilliantly. Jerry Goldsmith, Bernard Herrmann, Don Davis, Hans Zimmer, Vangelis, ... these are the guys who are at the bar of the state of the art of film composing, or close enough to be forgivable.

But I generally don't listen to anyone who isn't a hypocrite. So unless you've written some of this crappy music you speak of, I don't take anything you've said too seriously. Only those who are guilty of what they speak of truly know of what they speak. Generally I prefer, and give my respect to those who have learned from their mistakes. So let's hear some of your "mistakes". I'll show you mine if you show me yours! I've got plenty. PLENTY. [:)]

Evan Evans

What a thread......HAPPY XMAS [:D]

Based on his voluminous postings, I'm beginning to suspect Evan has found a way to get paid for this.

How do I become a professional VSL Forum poster? On second thought...never mind. I'd rather be writing some music than talking about it.
[:D]

Fred Story
Concentrix Music and Sound Design
www.concentrixmusic.com

God, I go away for the weekend and come back to find that Le Sacre has incited another riot; I feel like we are all back 90 years at the Ballet Russe! How on earth did nationalities come into this!?!?

Evan, thank you so much for all your time and thoughts. Thank you also Iwan for adding your perspectives. Ironically, I understood and appreciated both your remarks as entirely consistent in context. I grew up in Los Angeles yet eventually put in my time at the Paris Conservatoire so both ends of the art/entertainment spectrum are familiar. Both have their place and just as I doubt a performance of Messiean would move me, as much outside of Paris, if I was in a studio with 40-50 players and the time/money clock ticking away, I would be infinitely more comfortable in Los Angeles. It seems a matter of momentum and just as it is hard to compete with the art machine in Europe, so it is with the entertainment machine in L.A. - although both have much to offer. Personally, I find myself moving farther away from the concert hall towards the marriage of music and film because of the compositional opportunities to blend traditional and contemporary elements in a relatively new medium. The commercial part of that skill set suggests fluency in cinematic sound and Evan, you have certainly achieved that in the American Almanac theme; I love the falling intervals and tonalities as the phrases resolve. I can’t help but wonder Iwan, if you had a chance to listen to the link to Evans brass piece, “Suppression,” as it displays an artistic sensitivity perhaps more consistent with your own? Certainly, the mind that wrote these pieces has a handle on orchestration and wasn’t implying that Le Sacre is child’s play!

That being said, I’m still not completely on board Evan with what you’re saying. I get the tutti/pointillism thing now. Yet now I’m tripping up on the 5 things happening at once idea. Are you referring to supportive lines fleshing out a homophonic texture or adding density to a particular line like octave doubling, or are you thinking of countermelodies or other elements? Taking your fine Almanac theme, I don’t really hear that 5 element thing. I do hear the Hollywood (or perhaps Tchaikovsky!?!?) technique of amplifying the obvious. It’s wonderful ear candy (both meant in a good way). I also hear some counter elements like the harp as the opening motif repeats, although it doesn’t seem to do anything to propel the music or make anything more Hollywood as does the percussion. If the idea is to throw in the kitchen sink to keep the listener fascinated, it would seem that subtle counter-lines at the end of the first couple of phrases would be obvious opportunities (although I understand that it is the unexpected obvious that is inherent to this style). It seems between the extremes of your compositional abilities (Almanac to Suppression; very cool) is a solid desire for clarity which doesn’t seem consistent with mucking things up with 5 things happening at once. I know it’s the downside of sharing your insight in necessarily sweeping ideas, but could you be a bit more specific?

Sorry, wrote too fast, MessiAEn. I always screw that up; tooo maany vooweels...

I agree with some of the Evanevans Forum here however my main problem is that film composers today have become as conventional as they were in the 40s only in a slightly newer style. I am so sick of huge orchestras for everything, for example a light comedy or intense psychological drama. There is a mindlessness about it. A single solo flute can create the most powerful sound conceivable for a scene, but you have to write better music when it is "naked" like that. It so much easier just to use an entire string ensemble with lovely singing woodwinds and noble horns in counterpoint, etc. etc. etc. = especially considering the fact you don't even have to do your own orchestration in most studio films. (Actually a lot of the time you can't legally!) Of course sometimes something heavy is appropriate, as with Lord of the Rings, but too many composers and producers are over-doing everything in order to put out a "classy" product. (Classy=Big.)

You mention Bernard Herrmann - he is the exact opposite of what I was talking about. He always did his own orchestrations, and used ensembles that varied radically with the film. Jason and the Argonauts had only winds and percussion. Journey to the Center of the Earth had only brass, organs, percussion and harps. He wrote one score for Alfred Hitchcock Presents for bassoon ensemble alone. Of course Psycho is famous for using only strings. But one of his most radical was the rejected score for Torn Curtain which used nine trombones, twelve horns, twelve flutes, violas, cellos, basses and percussion and nothing else. A large ensemble, but a severely limited one compared to the required knee-jerk romantic orchestra of today. But the genius of Herrmann made it perfect for the film and Hitchcock was forced to reject it by the moron studio heads (I'm sorry, that's redundant isn't it?) who wanted a newer more "pop" sound - with a normal orchestra.

@Fred Story said:

Based on his voluminous postings, I'm beginning to suspect Evan has found a way to get paid for this.

How do I become a professional VSL Forum poster? On second thought...never mind. I'd rather be writing some music than talking about it.
[:D]

Since I do not get paid to write on the VSL forum - actually since a certain time I do sometime think that this is not the VSL forum anymore.......I do not want to get nasty, it is not my business-, and also since I have better things to do, I do give up.

Iwan