Dear friends of Performance Repetitions!

I´m afraid you are missing the trick with the repetitions. It is all about the transition sound from one note to the next, just as with the Performance Legatos!

Performance Repetitions are a VERY powerful tool, when you use it correctly. Cutting the sample start to the attack is like cutting the portatmento from the Portamento Performance Legatos. It just won´t make you happy (and I think, I heard Herb crying in the corner, when he read, that you are really doing it: “Oh no, they are destroying my library!”).

I know, that Performance Repetitions are “challenging”, but they are worth the time, and your understanding will make Herb a cheerful man again!

Let me reply to the different points Evan made:

#1 the amount of data:

Yes, each consecutive tone of a repetition (9, 8,7 and so forth) contains the same sample data. We decided to edit the samples this way to make the system easier to understand and to show, that each note has indeed been played 5 or 9 times, no cheating…
The second reason for this “waste of disk space” was to keep you from playing repetitions slower than recorded. The double attack will show you, that you are getting too slow (so you´re always “warned” acoustically…)

#2 the sample start

Please take a look at the picture you find in our FAQs http://www.vsl.co.at/english/pages/user_area/faqs/PERFORMANCE_TOOL/Performance%20Tool.htm">http://www.vsl.co.at/english/pages/user_area/faqs/PERFORMANCE_TOOL/Performance%20Tool.htm (click on the picture you find in the part of the Pepetition Mode to enlarge it), this is the way we edit the repetitions. An update on the FAQs for the redesigned Performance Tool for the PC is on its way (in case you´re wondering why the PC-Tool looks so "vintage"...).

You will notice, that the Fade In is BEFORE the attack of the next tone, and there´s a reason for that: Just as with the Performance Legatos, the “ambience” of the preceeding note is the connection to the following tone. It depends on the different articulations (legato, portato and staccato) and the different tempos, how many ms are needed. This is the “First Keyswitch Delay” you can adjust in the Performance Tool (we do that for you).

Please examine the different repetitions and find out, that the amount of time before the next sample start is always EXACTLY the same (the Vienna Symphonic Library Editing Team is really upset, that you think, we placed the sample start anywhere! Try to find a single repetition, where this is not true! I´ll pay the beer!)

OK, what is the “First Keyswitch Delay”: The first note of a repetition does not need a Fade In before the attack, that´s why the Tool automatically delays the first note of the Repetition for you, in order to play back the timing you played or programmed.

This is a crucial point. When you record you repetition and realize, that it is “late” in terms of timing, it will help to set a negative MIDI-Track-Delay (use exactly the time of the First Keyswitch Delay and you´re “on time”!)

#3 the release time:

As you play repetitions on a keyboard, you will have to lift your finger in order to play the next repetition. The Repetition Mode "knows" that and delays the "Note Off" MIDI-Signal, until the next note is played, in order to provide you with a perfect connection (see #2). That is the main difference to the Alternation Mode, as the Alternation Mode simply does keyswitching for you.

The release time defines the amount of time you have, before playing the next repetition (max: 500 ms). If you don´t play the next note within this amount of time, a "Note Off" will be triggered automatically (because every "Note On"-Signal NEEDS a "Note Off"-Signal).

#4 recording 9 single samples to build a repetition:

Every note of a repetition sounds different, not only because they are different notes, but also, because a sound, that has been struck, blown, or otherwise activated, reacts different, when it´s repeated, because the string is already in motion and the air in any blown instrument is circulating. The attack of each tone therfore sounds different (plus you hear the ambience of the preceeding note ringing on in the following note!)

Dear Evan, let me assure you, that you are NOT the first EXS-user playing the Performance Repetitions. On the other hand, you are definitely NOT the first one having troubles with that.

We just finished the Horizon-Series, so now it´s time to catch up with additional trainings and documentations regarding the use of the Performance Tool. The Script for a Tutorial DVD is already written, the whole system is so much easier to understand when you SEE how it is done. Meanwhile please be patient and have a look at Herbs MIDI-Tutorials (check out http://235.deatech.at/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=630&sid=2997eac8519bfe47505b21a6fba5ba13), that should shed some light on the whole issue for now!

Let me add a personal statement:

We have been playing the love-hate-game for quite a while now. The result has fortunately always been love for the Vienna Symphonic Library (and we love YOU back for sure!).

As you can imagine, everybody in this company is working hard to give you a perfect product and to support you. Please try to accept, that there ARE reasons for the way we are recording and editing our samples. New inventions always take a little time to adapt (especially when you are used to a different system!).

We all appreciate the passionate discussions in this forum, still I would like to see a more careful way of dealing with accusations, as they dangerously increase the possibility of heart-attacks within our team (you know, all the excitement, when you´re hardly sleeping….).

From Vienna with LOVE (I´d like to say that repeatedly, you will notice the second "L" sounds different than the first one, if you say it fast!),

Paul

This is something I wrote a while ago that didn't get used. I think Paul explained this, but perhaps someone will find it useful:


"Here’s how the Repetition tool works. A 5-note repetition performance, for example, is split up into five programs: one that plays all five notes, one that starts on the second note and plays the remaining four, one starting on the third note, and so on.

By automatically jumping to the program that starts with the next attack every time you play a note on your keyboard, you can program various numbers of repetitions, either by leaving out some of the recorded notes or (if you need more than the number of recorded repetitions) by looping back to an earlier note. These patterns are then called up using MIDI keyboard Function keys (which are so named to avoid confusing them with keyswitches)."

Thanks everybody!

I have the tool open. I have tried all that everyone has said. I just don't get it. It doesn't sound good here. maybe it's not a tool for live playing?

Evan Evans

Just to share something else...

I discovered a further use for the repetitions - specifically the perf-rep_slow repetitions (I think that's pro-ed only?): For situations where the legato tool sounds a little too angular (applies especially to ensemble strings, where the transition is sometimes 'too together' to sound completely convincing for a gentle melodic line), try mixing in or using instead the same line played using the 'slow repetitions'. It gives a wonderfully smooth, gentle legato, even when not one note is repeated! This, used sparingly, was a fantastic discovery for me!
(btw. for this to work, I found it better for the starting note to be turned off; just the 2nd and third active)

Most truly professional tools take a while to get the hang of, then pay back the effort later...

Best of luck,

Simon

@evanevans said:

maybe it's not a tool for live playing?

Assuming everything's set up right (and there are no bugs...) and you're playing at the right sort of tempo, and lifting the key enough between each note, it should sound similar to holding down a key and listening to the whole sample (all repetitions), except with your timing and velocity, and for that matter notes (you can change note in the middle, after all, and it still sounds pretty convincing). I found it sometimes helpful to play the repetition tool with one finger, like a beginner on the piano! This ensures that you get the right amount of gap between the notes.

Any joy?...

Simon

Hey Evan!

You´re right, if you want to play repetitions live, you have to play with a "built-in-negative-delay" (I´m practicing and it is getting better...).
PLUS you have to know, how many repetitions you want to play next and trigger the corresponding Function Keys.
Another alternative is the use of the Keyswitch "jump to last" in order to "get out" of the repetition properly!

Still, the Repetition Mode is not meant to be a LIVE-Tool in the first place(but of course we´re working on it, and it´s looking good!).

Please check out e.g. slow Legato Repetitions for the Horn Ensemble (4-120), the whole effect is REALLY obvious there. Simply record 5 consecutive tones in a tempo higher than 4-120 (I´d say, up to 200 bpm is possible with most of the instruments, you will hear, when it starts to sound fake) and make sure, you triggered the right function key (for most instruments C1) before that, so you always start with the first note of the repetition.

Now you can play around with the timing (always within the limits of 4-120, otherwise you´ll hear the "double attack"), you will always hear the transition sound.

To check the difference to repetitions made of single notes, simply load normal sustains and let the MIDI-Track play back the notes you programmed for the repetition....

I will get you through this! And you will LOVE it!

Best, Paul

A tutorial DVD is for sure an excellent solution for all. I'd love to have one.
VSL floors me with seach great ideas and sounds. I'll order HORIZON/Pro Edition EXS tomorrow.

Hey guys. I thank you all again. This is really new stuff for most EXS perf tool OSX users.

I was leaving the office earlier an ddidn't have time to reply. And right now I am grabbing some dinner so now isn't great either. But when I get in later tonight I want to respond to all those things that have stimulated a response from me and I look forward to it. Thanks all.

Right off the bat, I can tell you and Herb, not to worry about me "chopping up the library" because I have already completed converting all the First Edition repetition instruments into ALTERNATION TOOL instruments. And teh result is that they sound 100% real and you can play them 100% live, and at ANY tempo 100% live. So for LIVE playback purposes what I have done is NOT harmful, but rather helpful.

I will talk more about it later tonight, and I will choose ONE of my conversions and upload it so that the VSL team and indeed other users can try it out.

Any votes on which instrument First Edition EXS users would like me to upload?

Evan Evans

Just to confirm proper (or at least originally intended) use of the repitition tool: You are not actually suppose to hold a note down long enough to hear a sampled repitition but are always jumping to the first note of the next repitition - correct?

Dave Connor

dpcon@pacificnet.net

I was right in thinking that not everybody understands how this works! Please read my post above (and I don't mean that to sound arrogant, I just want to help).

Holding the note down gives you the recorded performance at its original tempo. Playing the notes at that speed or faster lets you play at your tempo.

Obviously, you can't play slower than the recorded tempo, because the next note in the recording will play before you play yours. But you can play a lot faster, up to the point at which the notes would overlap and sound ridiculous.

I find the dynamic repetitions the most useful; the standard ones are often only subtly different from using the Alternation tool - and even that isn't always patently obvious, depending on the program and the context.

Nick,

I did read your post which is still not as clear as it could be.
For example if you said: "The performance tool may be used by holding a note down and sounding those repititions at the recorded tempo or by jumping to the next note of the next repitition at slightly faster tempos" you would have an unambiguous answer.

My question is: is the above statement correct as far as the original intention of the tool? Please answer yes or no than you may refer me to any number of postings.

Please understand that the PDF file says holding notes down is incorrect usage of the tool. Hence my desire for clarity.

Sincerly,

Dave Connor

@Another User said:

I did read your post which is still not as clear as it could be.

Gee, and I've been thinking all along that I did a pretty good job! [:)]

The answer to your question is that you play each note normally, i.e. you hold it down as long as you want it to sound, ||: then play the next one and hold it as long as you want it to sound : || You *could* hold down the key and play the whole recorded performance of several notes, but then you're limited to that exact recording, plus the software is going to play the next program set up in the Repetition Tool next time you play a key. It's sort of like eating bark: you certainly could, but why would you want to?

Put another way, the repetition tool is switching programs every time you play a key. These programs essentially start with successive (or different) notes in the recorded performance of several notes. So if you play the notes one by one, you're triggering the next program at your tempo, not the recorded tempo.

Again, if you play too slowly, the next note in the recorded performance is going to sound whenever it wants (i.e. as it was recorded, which will be early), so you have to play faster than the recorded tempo for this to work. Or you can play at the recorded tempo; you just can't play slower, or the recording will get ahead of you. Conversely, you can't play so fast that the notes overlap because they're too long.

The objects of the exercise are to avoid playing the exact same note with every repetition and also to capture the transitions between notes.

Make more sense now? Or should I switch careers?

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Makee more sense now? Or should I switch careers?

Nick,

With absolutely all due respect, and sensitivity to not hurting your feelings, I think your explanations are difficult to wrap one's mind around. I have a similar problem as well. This is why I marvel at instructional manuals and books which, on the rare occasion you have a good one written by a great explainer, show how to do something with incredibly few words and outlined with extraordinary simplicity.

I do understand hopw the tool works now. But that is from my own endeavors for the pursuit of it's understanding. Armed with this knowledge, and as an unbiased person reading your posts, I can say that your explanations do not explain with a degree of simple logic. In fact, I see multiple paragraphs where you even correct what you've said, or try to wittle it down to simpler terms. It would be great to just have the simplest terms right off the bat.

Anyway, I encourage your postings, but you asked, and I wanted to say honestly that I have a hard time compiling your code. [:)]

I have the same problem trying to come up with music for Comedies! yuck.

Evan Evans

@dpcon said:

"The performance tool may be used by holding a note down and sounding those repititions at the recorded tempo or by jumping to the next note of the next repitition at slightly faster tempos"

Dude,
Good job. let me see if I can edit that to make it an even clearer attempt:

"The performance repetition instruments may be used by either holding a note down which sounds their underlying repititions at their original recorded tempo, or by lifting and retriggering the note which automatically jumps to the next note in the recorded repetition thereby allowing for the repetition notes to happen in a succession at, or faster than, the underlying recorded tempo."

It's almost there I can feel it. How's that? A little cryptic probably but maybe it's getting there. [*-)]

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

With absolutely all due respect, and sensitivity to not hurting your feelings, I think your explanations are difficult to wrap one's mind around. I have a similar problem as well. This is why I marvel at instructional manuals and books which, on the rare occasion you have a good one written by a great explainer, show how to do something with incredibly few words and outlined with extraordinary simplicity.

With absolutely all due respect and sensitivity to not hurting your feelings, I think your music, essays, and programming suck. It's always great when you hear well-written music, read a good essay, or use something that's been programmed well.

None of that's true, of course, but I had to say it just for fun.

[6]

@Another User said:

you can program various numbers of repetitions, either by leaving out some of the recorded notes or (if you need more than the number of recorded repetitions) by looping back to an earlier note.

In other words, you can tell it which of the five (for example) recorded notes to play. That's what the 1 1 1 1 0 stuff is doing. You can program 1_345, for example, leaving out bom #2.

Or you can hold down the key and it'll go 12345 at the original recorded tempo.

If that's not how it works, at least I've explained my misconceptions now! I think!

@Another User said:

With absolutely all due respect, and sensitivity to not hurting your feelings, I think your explanations are difficult to wrap one's mind around. I have a similar problem as well. This is why I marvel at instructional manuals and books which, on the rare occasion you have a good one written by a great explainer, show how to do something with incredibly few words and outlined with extraordinary simplicity.

With absolutely all due respect and sensitivity to not hurting your feelings, I think your music, essays, and programming suck. It's always great when you hear well-written music, read a good essay, or use something that's been programmed well.

None of that's true, of course, but I had to say it just for fun.

[6]Oh you ****. You had me going there. LOL. [[:)]] I was like, whatver man!

Very funny. YOu had me. i am so naive.

[[:)]]

Evan Evans

@Nick Batzdorf said:

[...] Make more sense now? Or should I switch careers?

No, Nick! Don't do it! You would have to make music, in this case!!

LOL [:D]

/Dietz (ducks and runs)

That would be horrible! Forget it, I'm going to keep confusing people with my bad writing. [H]

What charming discourse (fun conversation) we have around here. Well, the riddle is solved: do whatever you want with the repitition tool as long as the results don't suck.

Actually Nick, I appreciate your efforts to clarify proper use of the rep tool. I have surmised that jumping to the successive program by actually hitting another note is the nominal (normal) way of using the tool. Holding a note down to hear repititions might be something that works now and then if the tempo is exactly right. BINGO!

[:D]

Dave Connor