Iwan,

I am not referring to the highest note on the Violin. I am referring to the highest harmonics onthe Violin. And the fingerings are demanded as there are many ways to produce the same harmonic, such as "Touch 4" etc. In fact there is even ways to achieve artificial harmonics both through odd "Touch" combinations, and even in doubling back teh harmonic series to get a harmonic of a "stud" note. Very very complex stuff, especially on teh physics side of things, but some players know how to do them, and the more knowledeable the player the more "lost" they are going to be when you just notate a little circle above your note. In some cases there are as many as 8 ways to play the same harmonic, for instance on a Cello.

Furthermore, I was referring to the difference between Brass fingerings for the same note being easily discernible, not Strings. And the untrained ears I am speaking of must have an IQ of above 80 to hear it. But that pretty much covers everyone not in an institution.

The classical era I speak of is the era where harmonics came into common repertoire. Late 18th Century, early 20th. Stravinsky did specify the fingerings of all harmonics, sometimes with the exception of glissando harmonics which were his invention.

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

The classical era I speak of is the era where harmonics came into common repertoire. Late 18th Century, early 20th. Stravinsky did specify the fingerings of all harmonics, sometimes with the exception of glissando harmonics which were his invention.

[:D] Stravinsky had kind of a veryyyyyyy long life [8-)]


Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com
The only thing I do know for sure, is that I do not know much

Iwan,

If it's any consolation I have no idea why I started talking about Harmonics. Maybe it had to do with how subtle differences are found throughout repertoire, and "Sul" indications although sublte, do have an expressive effect on the performance.

Yeah. That was it.

[:)]

Evan Evans

@Iwan Roth said:

The classical era I speak of is the era where harmonics came into common repertoire. Late 18th Century, early 20th. Stravinsky did specify the fingerings ...
[:D] Stravinsky had kind of a veryyyyyyy long life [8-)]

My goodness. Sorry about the typo. Sure you know what I meant.

I thought stravinsky died at 170 years of age, no?

[[;)]]

Evan Evans

evanevans wrote:

'but some players know how to do them, and the more knowledeable the player the more "lost" they are going to be when you just notate a little circle above your note.'

Sorry Evan but the opposite of this is correct. The more knoledgeable the player, the less information you need to supply. So by simply putting a circle above the note, the player will use his/her experience to find the best/easiest combination of fingering.


Andy.
[/quote]

Ansy,

let's put it this way. The more ways a performer can play your piece, the more their going to wind up playing it the way they'd compose it instead of you!

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

let's put it this way. The more ways a performer can play your piece, the more their going to wind up playing it the way they'd compose it instead of you!

Evan Evans

Evan, I agree in general - but a string harmonic pretty much sounds like a string harmonic, whether it be natural or artificial, especially when a whole section is playing.

Andy.

@evanevans said:

My goodness. Sorry about the typo. Sure you know what I meant.

I thought stravinsky died at 170 years of age, no?

[[;)]]

Evan Evans

No problem, I think concerning typos I can compete with you. It just was funny....

Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com
The only thing I do know for sure, is that I do not know much

@evanevans said:

I also occasionally write in which valves to use for the brass, and fingerings for the woodwinds maybe 5% of the time. The brass with their unique structure of partials combined with their few valves, typically allows for as many as 5 permutations for each note getting progressively more dense in permutations on the upper ranges. And some fingerings against other fingerings can be so dramatic that just about anyone, even with untrained ears, can hear the difference. Of course I only write those in in slower passages where 1) it'll be heard enough to warrant it 2) it'll be reasonable enough for the player to use it.

And those brass players will more than likely refuse to play in those positions. Playing third valve for E and A, playing most of the high notes above Bb on any valve combination, and even playing the chromatic scale completely open -- sounds nice except for one major flaw. The alternate fingering and methods of producing the notes sound horrible. It's not an issue like the strings, where you choose the string for the different sound you want to project for a certain lyrical passage. The alternate fingerings sound *HORRENDOUS* and unless you're doing atonal music there really isn't a place for them.

Plus, dictating what to play and in which manner to play it in is arrogant. You're projecting the feeling that you know more about the violin than the violinist himself and that's just conceited. Sure, maybe this isn't what you intend, but it's arrogant to tell someone this is how you're going to play each note when the person in question has spent their entire life learning their instrument as though it's an extension of |his| body thinks of you nothing more than an upstart. 99.9% of those times they're going to ignore what you write anyway and play what works for them and is easier to perform but still sound close. If you told the trumpet line that they're going to be playing C5 and above all open positions and the line is entirely chromatic, they will give you the one finger salute and do it their way.

Sure, doing so is fine for a small passage, but you sound like you do it the *whole* piece. It not only doesn't sound practical to the players, but also seems overly arrogant of you to say, on musical notation, that this is how they must play because they *obviously* aren't smart enough to play it in the correct fashion. Probably not what you intended to sound like, but this is how it comes across from composer to composer (and also form multi-instrumentalist -- flute, clarinet, oboe, trumpet, german horn, baritone), so I can imagine just how it must seem to the players when they are handed a score that slaps them in the face.

What ? Stravinsky is dead ? [[:D]] [:D] [[:D]]

Looking at this from the standpoint of orchestral horn playing, which is the main one I know firsthand, (as opposed to strings) on fingerings it would always be up to the player what to use based mainly upon tuning. For example, you could use 1st and 2nd valve for an A (concert D) on F horn, or you could use only 3rd, but the 3rd tends to be flat. So the tuning is far more significant. Sometimes the exact fingering - if there are any options which many times there aren't - is also determined by how tricky switching between notes is. One example that comes to mind is the old William Tell overture third horn part. The "horn fifths" are difficult on valve horn, because of some odd switches between 2nd, 1st, 2nd and 3rd, etc. Something like that will make the player use whatever he feels like using if there is an option.

Shostakovich, Violin concerto n°1, written in 1948 ->mesure 7
You can hear it precisely
Here is the extract (click on track 4):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LWQH/qid=1068124360/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-5707968-1927035

I can't remember who said it (and maybe it's better for them that I don't know who they are [6] ), but it seemed to be inferred that I was arrogant for using fingering instructions. Whoever said that did not understand what I was saying, nor respect my place as an individual on this planet.

But to humor you I will try to ease your trepidation with my being: I use fingerings when they are necessary, not all over the place. I especially use them where there might be so many choices that ignorant musicians may NOT pick the best one, or wise musicans might become more confident in the composer for showing them that they are aligned with the musician's instincts.

Furthmore, as an example, Beethoven wrote Violin music that was not playable at his time. So if anyone wants to acuse me of writing music too difficult for musicians, let me speak to them now:

"you go right ahead and acuse me. If we need to build a new instrument to play my music than so be it. In the meantime, you can continue to write music for the box that you have constucted around yourself, while I explore the unknown so that others may follow behind me. I am not a composer who believes in doing what has been done before. I do not think that is what a composer is. A composer is an innovator by definition. Anything else is thievery."

So I can honestly say, nothing anyone says about my methods affect me. I am smart enough to have a base understanding of this world that tells me that music is not anywhere near the limits of where my imagination can go. And no musician, orchestra, or fellow composer can show me anything that might limit the scope of understanding of the universe that I possess and continue to fortify (except by physical force of course [[:|]] ).

In other words "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but (sticking tongue out), names will never hurt me"

Ha ha. LOL. [H]

Evan Evans

P.S. Anyway guys, lighten up and remember, "if it's possible, it can be done."

@evanevans said:

Mouthing off

I never said you were stupid nor as such -- read the post again. If you're too lazy to see that it was me, then you were obviously too lazy to read what I wrote. This 'respect for the individual' mumbojumbo is laughable. You came across as arrogant and I called you on it.

You came across as saying you dictated every note and every fingering for every instrument. That *is* arrogant. If that's not what you meant, and you meant to say "in certain situations" then that's fine. However, those players will see the alternate marking and more than likely ignore it and go for one that's easier to use, and has the correct timbre of the note. I have no problem understanding written speech, though you seem to have a little problem trying to convey what you mean.

Wow, you know how to write multiple fingerings. Go you. Frankly, I don't care what you do with your music -- it's your music. If you think you're making innovations, bully for you. Unless you're making new techniques for making sounds -- striking the brass instrument with a flute's cleaning rod, taking a haircomb and pulling it across the harp strings, or taping a piece of foil on the end of the brass bell -- you're not doing anything groundbreaking and "outside of the box."

Beethoven and Co. wrote music that wasn't playable at that time period. The instrumentational issues and the construction of the instruments were what hindered the players. What you're doing is not new, thus it's not 'unplayable' by today's players. If you want an instrument built for you -- go for it. I doubt anyone else will, and to think that one will just be built for you (without your intervention) is extremely conceited. But hey! We could always use something else to give the kids to study about in their theory class.

Like someone else say about the sul G/A/C/E/whatever strings -- if you're looking for that much realism you'd be better off just calling in a player.