This question goes to the heart of how you choose to work. (And where you are in the production chain).

From a pure Scoring perspective Sib and Fin offer far more depth and flexibility than any notation package built in to a DAW or Sequencer. Composers/Arrangers moving from the classic pen and paper to a DAW or classic Midi environment will probably find this a far easier step to take in the first instance.

Sib (and Finale & Encore) can be configured to form the front end of a classic Midi Set up. I know many composers choose to work this way – keeping at arms length from the Technology. I have set up several mini studios (composing and arranging suites) using Sib and a bank of samplers hard wired to a mixing desk.

These days, more and more composers/arrangers want to or need to get more involved with the production and they need to get to grips with the production tools and by far the most cost effective method is to go down the DAW route. The good news in that Sib and Finale can also front end these systems. And you can mix and match Sib/Fin with Giga/Logic/Cubase etc.

If you need produce the Score for publication or if your method of working is pen and paper then Sib/Fin are fine tools. However if you don’t need these then it is probably best to dive right in with a DAW/Sequencer.

Hallo bluedane

I have been working with Logic and Cubase for years. I wrote notes for several single instruments (different keys), arranged and produced scores for string- and brass-orchestras, choirs ...
All the musicians always understood what I wanted from them.
So for the everydaynotation you would be happy with programs like Logic, Sonar, Cubase... So far so good > there is a little "but": You would not be happy with the Light- and Low- Versions of those programs.

Beat Kaufmann

@Beat Kaufmann said:

Hallo bluedane

I have been working with Logic and Cubase for years. I wrote notes for several single instruments (different keys), arranged and produced scores for string- and brass-orchestras, choirs ...
All the musicians always understood what I wanted from them.
So for the everydaynotation you would be happy with programs like Logic, Sonar, Cubase... So far so good > there is a little "but": You would not be happy with the Light- and Low- Versions of those programs.

Beat Kaufmann

Beat,

You are right, but your statement can be missleading: There is no doubt that it is possible to write readable scores with Logic and Cubase (I also have them both). But as someone who did write scores and music books for major publishers, I can tell you that professional publishing companies will probably not accept them. Some publishers want even accept Finale, but most do accept Sibelius.

Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

Was it that they wouldn't accept electronic files from Finale or they actually wouldn't accept printed scores? Why is Sibelius better than Finale as far as a music publisher is concerned?

@peter0302 said:

Was it that they wouldn't accept electronic files from Finale or they actually wouldn't accept printed scores? Why is Sibelius better than Finale as far as a music publisher is concerned?

My experience is that many publishers do not like Finale printing output. At least if you use the standard font and the standard built in note spacing. There are alternative music fonts for Finale and experienced users can get results which actually do not have a ¨Finale¨ look anymore. With Sibelius you can high quality, good looking music engraving and printouts without changing anything. Sibelius is usually considered as looking less ¨computer¨.
But this is only my own personal experience and there may be other opinions about this.
I did change over from Finale to Sibelius about 4 years ago, because of complaints from publishers about Finale printouts.

Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax-com

Very interesting. Now, do they reset the score with their own machines copying what you give them or do they digitally reproduce what you give them? I'd have thought they'd prefer and electronic sibelius or Finale file so they could touch it up and send it directly to their output system.

@peter0302 said:

Very interesting. Now, do they reset the score with their own machines copying what you give them or do they digitally reproduce what you give them? I'd have thought they'd prefer and electronic sibelius or Finale file so they could touch it up and send it directly to their output system.

Peter,

Whatever you give to a publisher, he can touch it up. Normally I have given films made directly from an Sibelius/Finale .eps file. But I also sometime I gave just high resolution copies which also work fine.

My Saxophone method, published in 1989 by Hug, Switzerland, was the first music book ever published with Finale- exposed in Mac world expo/ San Fransisco-. At this time I had to import the files in to Adobe Illustrator, for graphic changes, and then to Page maker for layout. With Sibelius - and probably also with Finale-, I think that the whole book could nowadays be written inside the program, maybe even in one single File.

I am always wondering why a software program as Sibelius can not add a matrix window, track window, a MIDI event list and some basic audio recording, like the possiblity to record every single instrument to an audio track, in order to be synchronized with either ProTools or Logic - or wathever. With this basic audio tracks, one could add the desired EQ, FX a.s.f in the audio software. I know that this is possible right now to a certain extent, but it does remain not very practical.

Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

@Iwan Roth said:

[...] I am always wondering why a software program as Sibelius can not add a matrix window, track window, a MIDI event list and some basic audio recording, like the possiblity to record every single instrument to an audio track, in order to be synchronized with either ProTools or Logic - or wathever. With this basic audio tracks, one could add the desired EQ, FX a.s.f in the audio software. [...]

On behalf of ReWire, for example ...

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

@Another User said:

On behalf of ReWire, for example ...

/Dietz - [b][i]Vienna Symphonic Library

YES....ReWire, this would be the right thing, BUT, as far as I do know, it does not work with any notation software right now. Please tell me if I am wrong, this would be fantastic.....

Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

There have been posts of Sib's forum about ReWire requests but nothing thus far from the Finn Twins. (Not sure if Sib 3 will have ReWire - initial info suggests that Sib is following the Kompact route)

However Sib will front end most MAC based Sequencers via Midipatch Bay in OSX or OMS in OS9. This works a treat. Its easy to switch between the two GUIs but better if you have a multiple screen set-up. Sib's CPU loading is very light.

But as always you have to set the whole thing up in the first place (dont forget to save as a template [2 really one for Sib and one for your Sequencer]). Depending on your needs you can set up working templates for several styles etc. As one of our in-house composers puts it - 'Its like having any number of orchestral configurations at your command'

Remember ReWire was originally a Audio link between two applications - Midi was added to the 2nd Generation Spec.

-- On The Publishing aspect. Sib will export directly to Illustrator and thus the major DTP packages.

tattie

Even though I was raised on pencil and paper, for the past 18 years I've been using a sequencer for writing. I think most people find it a much more satisfying way to work. More importantly, as I've posted before, in general there isn't a huge market for pencil and paper composition; there usually isn't time for it.

Of course I still use a pencil and scribble things down on music paper when necessary, since that's how we've been trained to think. But most of the time I just play music in (in real time, slowed down, or occasionally step "time"), and make extensive use of editing. And I'm certainly not alone in this!

After that, Logic's notation section does an excellent job of interpreting what it should look like (for conventional things, at least), and getting it into a readable state is usually not a huge job. You just have to fix where it gets things wrong, change enharmonic spellings, add expressive markings, bowings, and so on. Its printouts are perfect for the MIDI-plus-overdubs work I do.

Dedicated notation programs are much more efficient when you're dealing with larger ensembles, and of course publishing music is a whole different thing. But notation poses some problems when you're using several tracks for every instrument, littering keyswitch notes all over the place, and so on. That's why I don't think notation programs are all that well suited to working with the VSL.

It was different when I was doing a lot of orchestration in the late '80s, because the MIDI instruments - mainly Kurzweil K250 - had so few articulations to deal with.

@tattie said:

However Sib will front end most MAC based Sequencers via Midipatch Bay in OSX or OMS in OS9. This works a treat. Its easy to switch between the two GUIs but better if you have a multiple screen set-up. Sib's CPU loading is very light.

tattie,

Could you make me a big favor and explain the setup for OS X via Midipatch Bay? I would like to try this.....

Thanks

Iwan

[I]
1 hour later:.......I could find MIDI Patchbay on the Internet - here the address for other which are interested: http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/7243
It is quite simple to get to work, but there is one thing which I can not achieve : Making Sibelius play and Logic record at the same time (synchronize). Is this possible and does someone know how to do it
[*-)]:


Next day: After getting infos from the Sibelius forum, it seems that synchronizing Sibelius with a sequencer is not possible right now. I do not know about Finale?

Thanks
Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

Iwan,

No you cant as yet do a 'syncronised start' from Sib to trigger any other midi application - but as with all these things there is a work around. - This feature has been requested several times in the past.

What you have to do is manually select REC in Logic set it running and then start the Sib Score.

There are settings that need to be made in both Sib and Logic to enable this to work. As soon as I am back in my office I will dig out my notes and post them.

I have tried several tricks in the Environment window but still cant get the midi note from Sib to trigger a Start sync pulse to set record.

Dont give up just yet. [:D]

tattie

@tattie said:

Iwan,


There are settings that need to be made in both Sib and Logic to enable this to work. As soon as I am back in my office I will dig out my notes and post them.
Dont give up just yet. [[:D]]

tattie

Tattie,

Thanks! I am not giving up.........If you can post your notes, this would be great

[[:D]]

Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

Iwan – Sib and Logic.

Note: Sib sends no Sync or Clock (MTC) data

OSX Method - MANUAL RECORD (Not that elegant or useful but works)

Note: To prevent a potential midi data loop make sure that Logic’s Transmit MTC is set to off (Under Song Settings Menu).

Set up Midi Patchbay with Logic as Input and Sib as Output

Launch Logic – Select any midi track in the arrange window and select Sib as the midi source. Click on any Audio Track in the arrange window.

Launch Sib. Go to Devices window and set Logic (Double Click any other device so that it is off)

Open Score and go to Mixer Menu and select Logic

Sib will now send midi note and programme data to Logic.

Note no timing or synchronisation data is sent so whatever tempo you set on Logic will be fixed for the duration.

When you want to record – Arm Record and start – apply whatever count-in suits (This needs to be long enough for you to make Sib’s window active and hit the play button.

This is messy but works – however I would suggest that you use the Sib-Logic link to compose and review. And then Save the score and a midi file and import to Logic and drag the midi tracks to your predefined Audio Instrument Tracks.


The same method works with OS9 using OMS.

We are still looking to see if we can get some sort of fix in the Environment Window to fake the record start.

I have seen a set-up that used a Unitor Unit and a TASCAM MTC device and a turn around midi cable that seemed to work – but this is a lot of bother (and expense) to go to.

Not a perfect answer best to keep the lobbying the Finn Twins to introduce either Synchronisation or REWIRE in Sib.

tattie