[8-)] I have something to add
I am -for sequencing- a Mac user, but not a religious one.......OS X is out since....I do not remember exactly, but quite long......Since only a few weeks the most important drivers and AU plug-in's for AU are out. From the reports I do read on forums and from my own experience there are still lots of problems with crashing machines using audio and MIDI. I use a G4 MDD 1.25 MH with 1GB RAM -OS X 10.2.6. The machine has besides Logic, MOTU driver, Waves and Audioease plug-ins no other soft or hardware as the OS X system software. AND IT DOES CRASH AVERAGE 3 TIME A DAY [:(] . With system 9.2.2 everything is running fine and stable.

So of course if I listen to this theoretical speculations concerning G5 and Panter I would use my profound wisdom [:D] to advice to be careful to spend your money before being sure that things are really all compatible and working with this machines and Panters.....

Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

[:D] Wise thoughts.... Hi Iwan! I am not a Mac user, yet.... But just today IO followeed a conversation about a friend who tried to boot his MAC from his IPod, he succeded twith that, in order to be able to run some kind of harddisk maintainance tools that he otherwise wasnt able to run.

I think, on "both sides" of the road, we are "sliced and diced" by the likes of Intel and Apple anywyas.... ;o}

Hey Herb.... can I have VSL running on ATARI please? ....running for cover ;o}

Best wishes
~^..^~
Bear

Evan, Evan...

You are a true believer aren't you! [:)]

/Mattias

@evanevans said:

For those of you OS9-ers and Windoze users, ...

evan, i made every effort to keep this discussion *unreligious* and enjoy each technical improvement, which is suitable to make our life easier.
some of your statements appear to me kind of unreflected and rather like a promotion campaign for G5s and related software than a guideline for most efficient usage of funds for desired value..., christian

Hey Sorry, CM. I was just adding my spirit to the thread. I can be dry if you want. But aren't we all musicians here? [:)]

Evan Evans

Hey Evan,

I am a bit dazzled here, Can you confirm that the number you speak of have been crosschecked in realtests with VSL on your G5.

If not, I must admit I find your explantions inconclusive.

@Another User said:

You easily can load 20GB of data into RAM-Space

What space do you refer to?

....If you compose as quick as you praise systems not even available yet.... can I call ya Scarlatti then? [[[;)]]] Just kiddin!

Look, your statements are written as if this has been tested, confirmed, and chrosschecked. Since when do you have that G5 running VSL? Then again, I may be wrong, but I assume this is more theoretical wishful thinking. Right? [[[;)]]] I understand your positive attitude towards the new G5 (AMD-) Architecture, I just think a little more scientifical sceptic is advisable.

I cant wait to hear about CM's Feedback on his lifetests with a G5 in a typical workenvironment.

Best wishes
~^..^~
Bear

I'm getting lost here. Someone straighten me out.

Now, of course you aren't loading every sample into RAM - that's what disk streaming does. But you are loading head start buffers into RAM, and that's the wall you run into with both EXS and Giga. As I've posted before, both OS 9.2.2 and OS X Jaguar hit the wall at the same point, i.e. the same collection of programs maxes both out at the same time on my machine.

How could it work to use virtual memory as the head start buffer? If that's the case, why even bother to put more than the minimum amount of
RAM in a computer?

I should also add that Kompakt, which runs the EWQLSO library, is capable of running completely from RAM (which I'm mentioning a propos Evyn's comment about samples not loading into RAM). As everyone knows, that library is recorded in three mic positions with long reverb, so it uses more voices. The Windows systems people are recommending for it - whether streaming or running from RAM - use the fastest memory available, tweaked out hard drives, etc. So obviously VM isn't going to work for it. I don't see why EXS is any different (apart from the way it's set up to use memory in OS 9: EXS uses memory not assigned to Logic, Kompakt uses memory that is assigned to Logic).

@Another User said:

I understand your positive attitude towards the new G5 (AMD-) Architecture, I just think a little more scientifical sceptic is advisable.

Skepticism is NEVER scientific. If that's the kind of science you practice than feel free to be skeptical. But fact, theory and falsehoods are the only things that scientists can call them scientists for relying on. Right now I am relying on factual information. untested indeed. But Einstein's theory of relativity wasn't completely tested until 3 years ago (alright so there was the lensing tests in the 40s). But this is not theoretical information I am relying on. Factual information.

And guess what, you skeptics will get some feedback from me on the tested nature of this factual information around Monday when I do some tests two weks before Panther is even released. You like? [:D]

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

...The Windows systems people are recommending for it - whether streaming or running from RAM - use the fastest memory available, tweaked out hard drives, etc. So obviously VM isn't going to work for it. I don't see why EXS is any different (apart from the way it's set up to use memory in OS 9: EXS uses memory not assigned to Logic, Kompakt uses memory that is assigned to Logic).

That is becuase you aren't taking into consideration that although OS9 and Windows share very similar architecture as systems, OSX is based on UNIX something very foreign and much more powerful than them both (combined probably).

"The reason you do not believe is because you assume the expected Neo." [:D]

@Another User said:

Nick, I need you to clarify something for me to know how to answer. WHAT maxxed out the same in OS922 and OSX jaguar?

The list of programs I could load into EXS24s before the machine told me I couldn't load any more. Incidentally, that was the same list I could load into my Giga machine, which at the time had 1.5GB (the same amount as the Mac).

And now I must ask you to clarify something: you say that the computer may not play back your sequence but you can bounce it to disk. How is that an advantage? In other words, Freeze can do that too, but it isn't a substitute for having several machines.

@Another User said:

And now I must ask you to clarify something: you say that the computer may not play back your sequence but you can bounce it to disk. How is that an advantage? In other words, Freeze can do that too, but it isn't a substitute for having several machines.

It's an advantage if you don't have all the machines! Whoa. That was an easy one. I mean let's say you have a sequence with 50GB of disk streams (1Mil+ samples), and it's playing back fine on a G5 with 8GB of RAM and Panther. Well you can take that same sequence to another computer less capable and NOT be limited. It will still load and allow you to mixdown, mute some tracks to playback others, do some freezing. So the advantage is clearly that you don't need several machines to run a massive sequence. Not sure if I have answerred this question. I'm not sure you were asking such a simple question. It certainly seems like an easy question to answer, but explain it more to me if I have missed it or didn't fully answer it.

I guess what I was saying is that if 50GB, or 1.2Mil samples, are playing back, and you need more, you can do it without having to freeze. With a Giga PC setup if you needed more samples then the capabilities of the computer than you'd have to BUY another computer. Because OSX is doing virtual RAM to fake the host app, Logic, into thinking the RAM is available for more voices, you are able to continue to add samples.

With Legato Instruments having around 2500 samples, and perhaps a Piano, MezzoPiano, Forte, Fortissimo Legato instrument from and to two octaves up and down seems likely in the future and it wold likely need 10,000 or more samples just for the one instrument, then being able to load 1Mil+ samples is a plus. ALL in one computer.

If Panther indeed delivers on lifting the open file limitation, than I would venture to say that to a composer (not a live setup), a maxxed out G5 would be the equivalent of around 20 PCs each with 2GB Ram and 4Ghz processors. A maxxed out G5 would cost between $7K and $11K. 20 PCs of Giga with 2GB Ram and 4Ghz processors would run, what do you say?, $50K ? $40K? $60K (with audio hardware and cable routing)?

Hey I just thought of of an interesting feature. How about a MASTER Freeze? So it does a mixdown, 32-Bit, puts all tracks into freeze-"emulation" and adds a master track with the freeze audio track on it. That would be cool and helpful.

Evan Evans

Will we be able to control when it switches to VM? I'd sure want to at least know when it's doing that.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Will we be able to control when it switches to VM? I'd sure want to at least know when it's doing that.

Nope. You don't need to. Neither does Logic. It just works that way. Self optimizing.

However, you can do things the kernel (the core of OSX) to maximize and optimize how the system works. Except, in Jaguar that was the case, I am not sure when they lift the limits if you can adjust anything because any number other than infinite will impose a limit.

Evan Evans

What I want to know is that my sequence isn't going to stop playing because the EXS24's head start buffer has been put on the hard drive by some large black cat! I'd call that *suboptimal* - not self -optimizing.

The good news is that Emagic is owned by Apple, so they're likely to work that stuff out.

By the way, I asked people at the Logic cubicle on the Digidesign stand at AES whether the EXS24 would recognize all 8GB if you have it installed, and (afer phoning someone) they told me it would - right away.