I was wondering if anyone had tips or tricks they use for using a lot of reverb (whether hardware or convolution or whatever) for a very large ambiant, wet mix without getting everything muddy. I am still getting things either too dry and "studio" like, or too muddy.
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using lots of reverb
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@William said:
without getting everything muddy. I am still getting things either too dry and "studio" like, or too muddy.
Hi there William. One little suggestion: try reducing a frequency range around 250 -> 350 Hz or wherever it is you percieve the 'mud' to be (try boosting first at different frequencies to see where it sounds 'worst'). Either in the reverb itself (can be extreme ie several dBs if nec.) and/or on the dry signal (even a tiny correction of 0.something dBs with a Q of 5 or 6 can make a big difference in this range). Another possibility: try quite a long predelay (even 70ms+) on the reverb, this will make it more 'aggressive' - more noticable, so you'll be able to reduce the level (thus hopefully reducing the mud too) without everything going dry.
I agree, you need a lot of reverb with the VSL instruments, and so there's a danger of getting close to 'muddiness' without extra care and attention.
Finally, if you find a nice sound balance but with some occasional dry 'holes', which I suspect is what you're getting when you refer to 'studio-like', try filling in the gaps with some reflections rather than reverb (to do this you can use special plugins but otherwise try adding a bit of delayed EQd (esp.top off) signal or use another very short reverb with a long predelay.
The possibilities are endless I'm afraid, but there are some parameters anyway. Hope one or more has helped anyway...
Best of luck,
Simon
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Thanks for the replies, Simon and King. Those sound like good possibilities Simon and I will try something along those lines. I am doing a big concert hall sound, King, and I haven't ever done anything like multi band compression, though I have the equipment. What are you thinking about specifically with fine tuning eq? Bossting upper frequencies in inner parts maybe?
Thanks,
William
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I use AltiVerb in it's 100% wet settings. All my orchestral sound goes through it. 100% wet.
It doesn't sound muddy. That should be a testament to the technology of the AltiVerb.
You can listen to one of my tracks online here at VSL. And another is supposed to show up shortly from the same project. I am using all EXS24mkII First Edition samples in Logic 6.1.0 under OSX on a Mac G4 with 2 AltiVerbs. One for WW,Str,BR, and another for Perc.
Evan Evans
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Evan, this was a huge help to me -- the more I hear the results of AltiVerb, the more convinced i am that it's the key to creating the sense of space that I've been hearing in many of the user demos on the VSL site. I think I'm going to have to shell out the $$, but it sounds like it will be well worth it. Thank you for sharing your tips!
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William,
Posting this as ‘shared information’ rather than the right or wrong way to achieve a good Reverb in a mix.
There is no right or wrong way to mix – this is down to the individual.
Some of this may be teaching you to suck eggs – sorry if that is the case – hopefully others will find it useful.
Often it is not the reverb stage that brings in the Mud – it is what goes on before that.
Ground rules: (Mixing Environment)
Check out your monitors – are they correctly placed – are they wired (Polarity) correctly. If you are using Bi-Amp Near Fields make sure they are set up in accordance with the Manufactures recommendation. The room you mix in can play a major part in this – try and achieve a Dead Room – if you have windows put up heavy drapes or curtains. Compressed cardboard egg trays attached to the walls might not look pretty but can do wonders for sound quality.
Post Composition and Pre Mix. – This essential stage will make applying Reverb easier.
I find it handy to write a list out of the instruments I have used. Just a rough list of the frequency bands and position I want to place them in the mix. This helps when I am applying primary EQ.
Set everything in the centre, work on one track at a time and apply EQ as required. TIP – you can vary EQ quite widely by using Pre or Post fader selection (Again no hard and fast rules). This will depend greatly on the precise style of your music. For example if you are voicing low to mid range strings to provide a background to the rest of the piece (think of this as the sky in a picture) – then the Pre-fade option can give you extra presence and warmth regardless of the final gain setting.
Gain is a problem that creeps in at this stage – there is a tendency to boost everything to give it clarity and this becomes a vicious circle. So bear this in mind. If you find you have a battle say between lower timbre Violins and upper timbre Celli cut the higher frequencies on the Celli first (very small cuts) - you can compensate a little by adjusting the Q value (widen it). This is not as contradictory as it sounds – overlapping timbres (Frequencies) can be best dealt with by boosting and cutting – adjusting the Q value can make some restoration - remember Bandwidth is defined as 1/Q.
Remember you may have to revisit each track as you progress with this.
Start the positioning – I rarely use Pan Pots – these days I use an Image Placement Plug-in. (My personal favourite is WAVES S1). Position your instruments one at a time in the overall picture – don’t go to extremes with positioning or panning. Remember sound energy is ‘mostly’ either side of the centre-line of the position – go too far and you can drive some of this energy to an Anti-Phase position giving rise to MUD.
Sometimes you just can’t get that group or solo instrument to sit right at all in the mix – Well then it is time to consider change your technique. MS-EQ the secret weapon – MS or Mid-Side is nearly as old as the recording industry itself. Originally it was a method of combining sound from a series of placed microphones and using sum and difference methods to obtain set phase relationships from the sound, which subsequently could be positioned uniquely in the picture.
These days you can fake this method using DSP techniques. You could set this up using a series of Aux/Sends but mostly I would recommend using a Plug-in. WAVES S1 package comes complete with the necessary plug to do the DSP. (S1 Matrix). You can find out more about this by downloading the S1 manual from the WAVES website. (I have posted some minor tips on the EXS forum).
With MS-EQ you can brighten or dull a timbre, you can fake distance – you can do some amazing EQ things – particularly when unlinked.
TIP – most Plug-Ins allow you to save settings – get used to doing this for everything – it saves reinventing the wheel at every session.
OK so lets assume you have set your EQ’s Positioned your instruments – now its time to get to the meat of the matter – Add faked reverberations. From here on it gets very subjective.
As I have said before there is not one single Reverb unit that can do it all. Pre-sets are mostly not really suitable for what you want. But they are a good place to start.
Select a pre-set of the reverb environment that best suits your needs.
Run your piece through a few times and listen to what is happening. Are you getting the degree of separation you require? Are the trailing tails right? Are ringing and resonance OK? Are the solo/feature dynamics OK?
Mostly if the EQ/Positioning is correct then adding a reverb should not Mud the mix. Yes you may need to make some minor adjustments but the basic mix should sound OK.
Without hearing the problem it is difficult to diagnose the problem but here is a list of common reverb problems: (a bit subjective)
Wrong environment selected – Your audience is not the conductor but ideally sat in the centre of the hall. A Small Hall set to the extremes of its size can be better than a large hall. TIP. If your using an algorithm Reverb unit, I would recommend using Church presets rather than Hall for Orchestral work.
Pre Delay set to extremes – Giving rise to tail problems – some units will allow you to apply a negative pre delay which can prove useful.
Early Reflections to Early/Late – Percussion sounds good but the rest is poor (I would zero this out and add sparingly)
Post Reverb EQ contradicts Primary EQ – Some units have there own EQ stage – mostly these work on the Pre-delay signal source – set wrong and you can undo all the good work you have done before.
Mid-High frequencies Damped – Mushy sound in the middle to high ranges – again set to Zero and carefully adjust (If your unit allows you to adjust the Ratio of damping set this to 1 initially and then adjust)
Too Wet or Too Dry – Adjust to suit to dry and you loose the effect ‘The Studio’ sound you speak of in you post. Too wet and you loose the direct sound.***
Reverb not consistent across the whole piece – Sudden Changes in the music dynamics can throw off the reverb unit – tails sound longer and ring out etc. If you have a piece with widely changing dynamics consider using two or more units and automate this in and out.
Sound too diffuse (Major Mud) – this is really a combination of the above.
*** Some units like Audio Ease’s Altiverb are perhaps best-used 100% Wet. Altiverb is an excellent example and overall probably the best unit of its type and well suited to Orchestral working – its limitation is perhaps the number of ‘venues’ that are available for it. I have found (thanks to a tip from Evan) that it is best to use multiple units 100% wet. Download the demo and see for yourself – you may find that this is all you need to improve your mixes.
Self Diagnostics – If you find you have Mud – try muting tracks until the mud lessens – this will give you a clue as to where to start to put things right.
If you have an Analysing Tool like PAZ insert this and look what is happening – Is there too much Anti-phase energy? Is the over all frequency response balanced? Or top or bottom heavy?
Compression and Limiting – Sometimes a multi-band Compressor can cure Reverb problems. Place the MBD after the Reverb unit and solo each band – this may give you a clue to where things are going wrong - but dont rely on Compression to fix the mix.
You can make changes to every parameter on your Reverb Unit and still find you are not getting a better sound – normally this is indicative that things are wrong before the reverb stage. You may, for example, have introduced anti-phase signals - quite a common problem – which can be caused by driving too many plug-ins(EQ/Compressors/Limiter/Delays etc) to their extremes – Again use something like PAZ on each channel in solo mode and look at the frequency response and phase relationship etc.
Advanced Tips: Consider The Group or Band EQ/Reverb method and Using the multiple send EQ method to separate difficult timbres.
Hope this helps a little – happy to try and answer any questions.
tattie
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I bore myself posting the same thing over and over, but predelay is the first answer. Filtering excessive lows from the reverb send is the other first answer, and not really because of what happens to the reverb but because bad reverb makes you want to foof around with eq in a vain search for clarity.
