This Sound Sucks!

[Craig Sharmat]

I don't know of a user hint or trick section in the forum, but I think it might be a good idea.

I know a few people who recently bought VSL and may be falling into the same pitfall I have. I get so enamored over using the performance legato strings I end up using them as much as possible. Why? cause it sounds real!. That can be a big mistake. When the legato tool is used constantly on a lot of phrases it can create the now famous sucking sound (the sound that the notes are getting sucked into the track). I feel the performance legato strings should be looked at as a flavor instead of just the main course. I have to use this mentality. If you find your strings are sucking, go to the cube and find strings with a harder attack. "Long-Notes" and or "Short Notes" should do the trick depending on the piece you are working on, and try replacing the performance legato notes with one of these. where you can put the legato in by all means do so but beware of lines that need to use the other patches. [:)]

[Simon Fox]

I found mixing in crescendos and/or diminuendos from the cube on top of the legato line a good solution to the 'sucking'. It can help blur the edges a bit too.
The sucking's normally caused by too large a drop in velocity between one note and the next. If you try to avoid too sudden changes in dynamic through the legato line, that can solve the problem too...

Simon

[Rob Elliott]

Great ideas Craig and Simon.

Rob

[dt2080]

Questioni is in the title really, what do you guys use if you want long notes, but with the sound of the bow digging in to the string at the start of the sound?

David Tobin

[dt2080]

Questioni is in the title really, what do you guys use if you want long notes, but with the sound of the bow digging in to the string at the start of the sound?

David Tobin

[William]

I would add to this that the p legato in violins sometimes has the effect of allowing you to hear the start of the dissected transition note sample at a higher velocity than the initial attack sample, resulting in a sudden "cutting" in of the transition sample. This is remedied by a higher first note velocity and a softer second note.

But also on the question of using too much legato - it is essential to follow the strings actual practical bowings in any line of music. You can easily create performances with the legato tool that are physically impossible to do live, and sound weird as a result. The phrasing that would be employed in a live performance is crucial, down to the exact spots for upbows vs. downbows, slurred vs. detache, etc.

[NG1]

@Another User said:

Questioni is in the title really, what do you guys use if you want long notes, but with the sound of the bow digging in to the string at the start of the sound?

The Pro Edition, hopefully. [:)]

Although, I suppose you could try one of the staccato samples layered with the long note at a lower volume. And don't forget the fp, sfz patches - sometimes that works if the line is at a higher dynamic level.

[mike harper]

[H] i found in the cube- the "osus" for leggato to be very usufull and especially the ones with RS release samples. and the szf. samples as well
i just went through every single sound in the string lib to familiarize
myself with the sounds ( 1st ed) and i am greatfully blown away. starting brass and WW today . this is fun!

[Russell Wilson]

Been working on the legato sucking string problem. Found an interesting possibility today, using the espressivo ff strings. I'll make it simple for the less experienced out there -- apologies to you sequencing geniuses out there!

1. Find a full legato string section in a sequence. Load an espressivo ff combination with sus + 0sus for two violin tracks and the viola track. (Low strings don't have espressivo. Just use sus or legato for them for the moment.) Also for now, set all velocities to 90 or so for a full sound.

2. In your sequencer tracks, insert a Controller #1@127 (attack on*) just before any notes which begin a phrase and also during any repeated notes. Then insert another Controller #1@0 (attack off) DURING the note with the attack, so the following note will NOT have the attack. All notes after that controller message will be missing attacks: they will be legato.

3. Open the tracks and lengthen every note EXCEPT the note just before any attack notes so it slightly overlaps the following note. (In Performer I add 20-40 ppqs - or perhaps 40-80 milliseconds. In my graphic editor, I just drag them a bit till it looks about right) If your attack notes are preceded by pitches instead of rests, make sure they go right up TO the attack, but do NOT overlap. The idea is to get them as close as possible without accidentally removing the attack. About 10ppqs seems to do it.

4. Add a touch of reverb. Now play the sequence at the following Volume levels in your sequencer (setting the 5 string tracks as a group, you can play with the sliders in your mixer screen): 50=p 55=mp 60=mf 70=f and 80=ff (that's all approximate, of course, but I have a unity-calibrated system) The effect is quite powerful and most of the sucking sound disappears, because the dreaded level drop doesn't happen between most pitches. There are exceptions when repeated notes don't seem to need an attack... depends on the pitch and velocity involved.

This is a BIG, RICH sound, very different from the perf leg strings. I don't particularly like velocities above 108 because then you go to maximum overdrive on the vibrato, but up till that point, it's pretty persuasive.

Please remember, this is just for fun. I realize there is a lot more to do to make a sequence truly expressive (I adjust velocity of every note!) But my snooty violin-professor colleague has turned his nose up at every string sequence I've played for him till today. Today his jaw dropped. His comment was, "This is just... sick and wrong!" [[;)]] Music to my ears!!

Good luck! Prof Wilson

*Controller #1 is, of course modulation. You can insert it as an event or simply record it into the track(overdub only!) by pushing all the way up for 127 and letting it go for 0 - works fine, but it's pretty messy from a midiot's standpoint, since all the values in between show up in your event lists. tsk tsk tsk

[NG1]

Thanks Russell, I'll try this out. Is the purpose of step four to eliminate the need to use velocities for dynamic levels? (using the volume controller instead?)

[Russell Wilson]

Not exactly, but... yes. This was just an experiment on my part find a rich vibrant sound without the sucking. The ff sound doesn't respond terribly well to velocity changes, at least on my system. I found that any specific loud notes didn't seem to get softer until I moved velocities from 90 down to about 50! I am a little confused on what the layer setup is on the ff esp sounds. (The mapping page doesn't list layers.) I can't hear four levels, but I think I hear three: above 107, above 55 and below, but it's hard to tell.

Your question is a good one, because I have never approached a sequence by having very high velocities and very low volumes. That's why I thought it was worth sharing, because the effect was something I've never created.

Have fun.
Russ