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  3. Out of Breath

  • Out of Breath

    B
    B
    I just purchased the Brass/Woodwinds set and feel like I've been kicked in the gut. After listening to all the demos and reading most of the opinions out there on Vienna, I decided to take the plunge. What I discovered once I started going through the patches was at first puzzling, then irritating, and finally, downright angering.

    There are some interesting patches in the set, to be sure, and it's certainly possible to make good sounding music with VSL, but there are some serious problems, primarily with the long notes patches. My first visit was to the layered trombone patches where I found that the forte sustain lasts for all of 3 seconds. 3 Seconds??!! The p layer is longer at about 8 seconds, but it's impossible to crossfade into the loud layer if I do so more than 3 seconds after starting the note. The loud note just isn't there. The same is true in the basic long note programs, as well, obviously. The tuba is even worse at around 2 seconds.

    I understand that things may be done differently in Vienna than Hollywood, but come on, any brass player worth their spit can hold a forte note longer than that. I am in the process of doing mockups for a major studio film that has lots of big brass choir writing and I can't even perform two bars worth of sustained chords at 71bpm with this library. It's not just a film music issue, either, as it would be impossible to mockup some of the formal music literature, as well. This is ludicrous considering the apparent huge amounts of time, money, labor and advertising that were spent on this library.

    I am so disappointed and incredulous at such a lack of useability that I've contacted Ilio to get my money back. Whether that happens or not is yet to be seen, but this experience has ended any interest on my part in the rest of the library. If the Vienna team is planning on an update, either of recording longer notes or of looping the existing library, I would like to know. It won't help me now, but it would at least go a long way in redeeming what could have been the best library to date.
  • H
    H
    Hello Bjean,

    sorry that you are dissapointed.
    At the moment we do some looping jobs.
    All the brass ensemble sustains, strings sustains/tremolos.

    This looped versions will be included in the Pro Edition and also part of our free update DVD. (for all customers, that won't upgrade)

    My experience with long ff sustains with brass (in real live) is, that the players always have a dynamic modulation. It's a light crescendo or diminuendo.
    With this technique they are able to hold this ff "sustains" longer than 3 seconds (trombones for example). Sometimes more than the double length. If we insisted for longer notes, they simply reduce a little the loudness. 3dB less could give them 1 or 2 extra seconds, but than the ff is not massive enough.

    The Tuba:
    Fact was, that in the lowest register ff the player was empty after 1 to two seconds. I decided to map this short stuff into the sustains to give more flexibility in arranging.
    The Tuba player also said, that he never did this extreme playing i real live before. FF in lowest register, even generally in all registers (maybe except staccato effects) is very rude and also not used in normal literature.

    I also asked how they manage that extreme situations for example in modern pieces:

    They simply look how long the note is, and decide how loud they could play it. It could happen, if the conductor or composer insists for longer ff sustains, that unsisono ensembles make shifted breathing.
    That's OK in tutti arrangements but not OK for samples.

    I don't know if circular breathing is possible in ff register for brass instruments. Our musicians can't do that.

    But who knows, maybe Hollywood brass players could do this or have simply larger lungs than Europeans.

    best wishes
    Herb
  • M
    M
    Hi Herb,

    I'm delighted to hear that you will include looped samples in an update. [+o(] [+o(] [+o(]

    I have also experienced the problem that bjean mentioned and find that I have simply "written-off" many instruments as temporarily useless.

    I also believe that there can be a huge number of optional settings using such things as breath controllers and aftertouch. I am experiencing some very frustrating bugs in Logic at present (see my topics on the EXS24 section) which inhibit me from doing serious editing experiments. When I can, I'll post some examples.

    Regards - Colin
  • M
    M
    "My experience with long ff sustains with brass (in real live) is, that the players always have a dynamic modulation. It's a light crescendo or diminuendo."
    With this technique they are able to hold this ff "sustains" longer than 3 seconds (trombones for example). Sometimes more than the double length. If we insisted for longer notes, they simply reduce a little the loudness. 3dB less could give them 1 or 2 extra seconds, but than the ff is not massive enough.
    [*-)]: [*-)]:
    ARE THESE LIGHT CRESCEDOS/ DIMMINUENDOS IN THE 1ST EDITION AT ALL? i am a bit concerned there is nothing longer then 3 sec?
    thanks - [:D] [:D] good to hear about the loops for us un-idiomatic orchestrators!!

    mike
  • H
    H
    I just wanted to describe, how musicians manages long ff sustains in the real world.
    I know the sample world is different.
    The problem is the architecture of the modwheel crossfade function:
    All layers have to sound during the whole sustain.

    I hoped for more advanced looping options of the Giga 3.0 version.
    That's why I decided to wait with loops for the Pro Edition.
    Now we are releasing the Pro Edition on 2.5. [8-)]

    By the way:
    This volume changes are my personal experiences reprogramming analog played orchestra stuff.
    Airforce One is a good example.
    The Horntheme at the beginning. In the score you find only a simple ff.
    First I prgrammed it with normal sustains, and it doesn't worked.
    Than I changed the longer notes (always the endnotes of a phrase) to diminuendo samples (ff-mf) and now it sounded exactly like the original.

    best wishes
    Herb
  • M
    M
    [:O] ok some of this will be very clear when i get the cube shortly.
    but what if i was to play the very last chord of beethovens 5th last
    movement. this is longer then 3 sec. at ff, ( don't have the score in front of me) i am assuming you could use a mf-ff or ff- mf-ff
    or something similar- [[:|]] the original post made this sound imposible

    thanks
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    @herb said:


    But who knows, maybe Hollywood brass players...have simply larger lungs than Europeans.


    Lungs normal. Egos giant.
  • I
    I
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    @herb said:


    But who knows, maybe Hollywood brass players...have simply larger lungs than Europeans.


    Lungs normal. Egos giant.

    As someone which did teach professional wind players in 4 different continents, I can assure you that there are players who can hold long notes for a loooong time all over the whole world. And there are also some which can not............

    Iwan
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    I
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    @mike harper said:

    [:O] ok some of this will be very clear when i get the cube shortly.
    but what if i was to play the very last chord of beethovens 5th last
    movement. this is longer then 3 sec. at ff, ( don't have the score in front of me) i am assuming you could use a mf-ff or ff- mf-ff
    or something similar- [[:|]] the original post made this sound imposible

    thanks


    Just in order to avoid missinformation about the classical repertoire: The Final C minor chord of Beethoven symphonie nr. 5 is not longer as 3 seconds.....The longest ¨last chord" Version of Beethoven 5th I do have on recording, is Berlin Philharmonic, conducted by Loorin Maazel = exactly 3 seconds. But apart of this I agree with you. A good example would be Brahms 2th =ca. 6 seconds D major - brass tutti FF, let's try it........

    Iwan
  • B
    B
    Herb,

    Thank you for responding. I'm glad to hear there are plans to loop the library. I am bemused by the conversation you had with the players, though. To say that ff in the lower tuba register is not used in "normal" literature is curious, to say the least. A quick perusal of the scores of Prokofiev and Stravinsky and some little known Austrian named Mahler show that to be far from the case, unless, of course, the player considers anything written in the 20th century to be modern and not normal.

    As to LA players having bigger lungs, well, I guess that's true, but it's also true of Chicago and London and Sydney, etc. As Iwan points out, players all over the world can sustain loud notes. I mean no disrespect to the players used in the sampling sessions, but it seems as if they weren't quite up to the task. Looping will help with this, but when the sustained sample is only 1-3 seconds long and the first second or so of the note is still settling, there's not much left to loop.

    I think I understand what you're saying about the end of sustained notes coming down in volume somewhat. I often write a small dim. in the score at the end of held notes to avoid an abrupt cutoff, but players will generally do this anyway, unless specifically instructed not to. Yes, this can be approximated by adding a dim. patch to the end of a sustained patch, but that will require at least another MIDI channel in the sequencer and another slot in Gigastudio, to say nothing of the time to make those two patches crossfade seamlessly and sound like one long note. This I do not have time for, and whatever happened to the concept of this library making sequencing easier and giving composers/orchestrators more time to create and not tweak?

    I've had my questions answered, so I won't continue this thread any longer. I'll be sure to ask more questions before I make another expensive purchase like this, and would encourage others to do the same.

    Best of luck.
  • K
    K
    it may also be time constraints not just the players.

    Longer notes at ff/fff are probably harder to keep consistant so multiple takes are needed.


    multipe takes of jsut the ff/fff versions of 2 million samples or whatever.....

    hmm see you in 2010
  • D
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    @Another User said:

    At the moment we do some looping jobs.
    All the brass ensemble sustains, strings sustains/tremolos.

    Hi Herb,
    Are you going to loop the woodwinds as well?
  • H
    H
    We are discussing it. [[;)]]

    I had a very interesting conversation last year with Peter Siedlaczek about simple physical limits in sample technolgie. We talked about noise floor, that a harp is the most difficult instrument to sample properly, and so on.

    About looping Peter said, that he never was satisfied in looping solo wind instruments. Conclusio is, that a looped solo instrument will be always a compromise, because you will mention it.

    In earlier days, producers have to use very short samples with very short loop points, here you don't have timbre changes because the sample was to short for a change. The loops worked well, but the instrument sounded inanimate and steril.

    With this solution I couldn't live. If you don't have problems with timbre-jumps, we could offer solo wind loops.

    It wouldn't work for exponated solos, but could work for bigger orchestrations.

    best wishes
    Herb
  • D
    D
    [:D] Thanks Herb, I think this would be a good idea, certainly for simplifying midi-mock ups of orchestral scores, specifically for tied notes.

    I note in the scores like Bruckner's 7th, the last eleven bars of all four woodwind parts at the finale of the 1st movement are tied for the same note at fff. Also at the end of the adagio 2nd movement, the last 9 bars for the trombones are tied - admittedly at pp dim ppp, but it's a long time at the slow tempo. I'm not sure how the players accomplish this.

    Craig
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    @herb said:


    But who knows, maybe Hollywood brass players...have simply larger lungs than Europeans.


    Lungs normal. Egos giant.

    As someone which did teach professional wind players in 4 different continents, I can assure you that there are players who can hold long notes for a loooong time all over the whole world. And there are also some which can not............

    Iwan

    Teasing.

    I'm IN Hollywood! [H]
  • M
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    Herb said:

    @Another User said:

    If you don't have problems with timbre-jumps, we could offer solo wind loops.


    Can't you use the sample crossfade to smooth over timbre jumps? I find that in EXS24, an Auto Crossfade value of over 100ms with EqPower checked REALLY helps smooth over loop changes.

    Just a thought........

    Regards - Colin
  • B
    B
    I bought VSL because it sounds real. If you are waiting around for looped samples to arrive, then you are probably writing music that is unplayable by real musicians and therefore will sound fake regardless of how good your samples are. Bravo, Herb, for taking the time to research playability before programming VSL. Sure you can find trombonists who can sustain a ff for longer than 3 seconds but not in every city that you want your music heard. And most of the time at an intonation price. So don't write it that way. (And Herb, please don't loop the woodwinds!!!)

    Anyone using the VSL will benefit greatly from spending time studying orchestration or listening to orchestral music. And when you see a 9-bar held brass note in a Bruckner score, consider that there are 4 bones holding the chord and each one of them is expected to "stagger breathing," as is often written on scores. This can be done subtly and without unbalancing the chord or even hearing a reattack of the note.

    That said, try doing this (staggered breathing, reattacking, transferring the note) in your writing/mixing to get around the 3-second length. It's what real musicians would do...

    BLAKE
  • T
    T
    Herb,

    Blake is spot on - its up to the composer to find the work-around and there are so many possibilities.

    Perhaps it is best to leave - say we say tonal and lenght adjustments to the user. Certainly the editing function of the ESX will allow you to do so many things [Giga is probably the same] Additionally there are other tools such as ReCycle that a user can easily use to extend/change/whatever.

    Like many people these days my main instrument is the Sampler - and just like any other instrument it takes time to learn and master - and in doing so you find that there are many possibilities for expression and intonation. [And just like any other instruments - the composer should strive to understand what it is capable of]

    And tongue in cheek -- perhaps our friend who started this thread should go and get himself a Melotron [:D]

    --- on the subject of non standard Orchestral instruments - would love to see samples for of the Melophonium and Ondes-Martenot if you ever come across them.

    tattie
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    @tattie said:

    [...]
    --- on the subject of non standard Orchestral instruments - would love to see samples for of the Melophonium and Ondes-Martenot if you ever come across them.

    tattie



    ... I hear you! ;-]


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • M
    M
    Blake wrote:

    If you are waiting around for looped samples to arrive, then you are probably writing music that is unplayable by real musicians and therefore will sound fake regardless of how good your samples are.

    Well, why only imitate reality?
    Let's also transcend and surpass it!

    If you are a "purist" and only use a sampler to play what could be played by live musicians, that's fine. I believe we live in an amazing time where music can also be played by instruments that do not exist in the physical universe.

    So, let's have loops, filters, reverse the samples, whatever allows the composer (and the listener) freedom.

    Regards - Colin