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  3. After four weeks of VSL

  • After four weeks of VSL

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    After 4 weeks of VSL!

    Last week I did make herb somewhat angry with my statement about the bassoon, and of course I did not intent do this, or even less to offend the players. The way I did make my comments was not very diplomatic, and I am sorry about this. I do not want to come back to this topic, but last week I only wanted to say that I do like the oboe and bassoon less than the other patches of this library. Actually the Bassoon is very good, I did make some experiences with the beginning of Stravinsky’s “Rite of Springs”, using 3 different libraries and, IMHO, VSL is without the slightest hesitation the best. I can put these small files on my homepage if someone wants to listen. Once we do have a French oboe, I will be totally happy [:D]

    But this week I did actually really work with the strings and the performance tool. I do already own Garritan strings, which I also do consider as a fine string library, so I first did consider buying VSL without the strings. Mainly because of the time I had to invest in order to be able to use the VSL strings well. But I am very satisfied that I did decide to purchase them. I like both the performance-tool and the cube strings. They are very present and rich, but can still sound “dolce”. Once we have the complete VSL, this will be a fantastic sampled string section!

    As for the Performance - legato tool, I think everybody will agree that this is a kind of revolution. I am sure that some of the remaining MIDI problems will be corrected in the near future. After spending sometime playing with the tool, I think that this technology has also an enormous potential in the future, as host application and hardware will improve.

    If you do not agree with me, Please do not hesitate to crucify me, [H]

    Iwan
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    I don´t want to crucify you (sorry [:D] )

    I just want to hear Stravinsky´s "Rite of Spring" conducted by Mr.Iwan Roth, and performed by the VSL orchestra. [:)]

    (If you are unsure about any part I could scan for you parts of the score for this one. I have one of those useful conductor´s book with all the instruments)

    I would also like someone giving a try to Bernard Herrmann. I really dig his music...His soundtracks for "North by Northwest" or "Vertigo" are as inspiring as music can get [H]
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    @Netvudu said:

    I don´t want to crucify you (sorry [:D] )

    I just want to hear Stravinsky´s "Rite of Spring" conducted by Mr.Iwan Roth, and performed by the VSL orchestra. [[:)]]

    (If you are unsure about any part I could scan for you parts of the score for this one. I have one of those useful conductor´s book with all the instruments)

    I would also like someone giving a try to Bernard Herrmann. I really dig his music...His soundtracks for "North by Northwest" or "Vertigo" are as inspiring as music can get [H]


    Netvudu, (sounds like one of the lovers of Cleopatra.... [[:)]] )

    There is no orchestra, only a Bassoon and it is only the first 4 bars of the piece....

    Thanks for your offer; I do own two scores, 5 recordings and tons of analysis treating regarding this piece. I even like music theory more than computers....

    I will post the files tonight. after about 12 PM (24:00) Madrid time, they will be on http://www.iwanroth-sax.com/text/Studio-E.htm. Under the green link "Second version with use of Performance Tool Strings " will be a file named STRA. this will be it. The order is VSL, Dan Dean and Siedlascek.

    Thanks for your interest

    Iwan
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    Hey, it was sooner than expected.

    First of all, for anyone iterested, the correct link is http://www.iwanroth-sax.com/text/Studio-E.htm">http://www.iwanroth-sax.com/text/Studio-E.htm (Iwan added a dot at the end so his url wouldn´t work)

    As for the files themselves I´m a bit confused. To my ears the most beautiful one was the Dan Dean version. There was a strange sound coming from the VSL version. Like if something was being hit with every attack of the instrument. Maybe that´s product of something which happens in the real life bassoon but it made it sound a bit choppy in my humble opinion.
    As realistic as this strange sound could be I don´t hear it in any real orchestra (if it´s there I don´t notice it).
    Wait...I just noticed the same sound at the end of the Dan Dean version. I then understand it has something to do with the mechanism of the instrument...but it seems a bit exaggerated on the VSL version. Or maybe it´s how the real deal is supposed to sound. I don´t know, I have never been in a room with a bassoon (well, just in live concerts as an spectator).

    So my novice opinion is ...does the VLS version sound more realistic? probably. Does it sound more musical? not to my ears.
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    I dunno, I think the DD and Sz sound like every other sample library: fake. The VSL bassoon seems to have real body and presence, albeit a little clicky (perhaps mic'd an inch too close?).

    So what's the verdict?? GOS strings or VSL strings??
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    I agree with Emlyn.
    I think the clicking of the keys is a bit loud, but perhaps a bit of reverb would hide that. Aside from that, if you don't like the sound of the VSL version, you must not care for the sound of a bassoon, becuase that's the best simulation of one that I've ever heard.
    The Dan Dean seemed to have the next best tone, but the legato wasn't very good. Siedlaczek did the legato better, but not as much detail. Also one of the high notes is an octave below where it should be. I guess the range is restricted in Siedlaczek.

    Anthony Lombardi
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    @Netvudu said:

    Hey, it was sooner than expected.


    As for the files themselves I´m a bit confused. To my ears the most beautiful one was the Dan Dean version. There was a strange sound coming from the VSL version. Like if something was being hit with every attack of the instrument. Maybe that´s product of something which happens in the real life bassoon but it made it sound a bit choppy in my humble opinion.
    As realistic as this strange sound could be I don´t hear it in any real orchestra (if it´s there I don´t notice it).
    Wait...I just noticed the same sound at the end of the Dan Dean version. I then understand it has something to do with the mechanism of the instrument...but it seems a bit exaggerated on the VSL version. Or maybe it´s how the real deal is supposed to sound. I don´t know, I have never been in a room with a bassoon (well, just in live concerts as an spectator).



    You did listen very carefully, congratulation! The sounds you hear are the keys of the instrument. I do personally not like samples where this noise is filtered out. I an orchestra recording or concert you will not hear this, but if you do listen to a bassoon solo with piano recording then you will probably do hear it. As I did mention before some sound engineer filter these frequencies out....

    I do like the VSL better for this passage, because it sounds earthier, more in the spirit of sacral dance which The Rite of Spring is.

    Thanks for listening

    Iwan
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    Thanks a lot for your comparison test, Iwan.
    I think that's exactly what people like to hear.

    Just want to ad my 2 samples:

    If you normalize the first bar of the "Sacre" of an original recording, you will here tons of noise. I can't make the test now, cause I don't have a recording here at the moment. But I would say the first bar (where the bassoon is playing complete solo) is 30 to 40 dB lower than the maximum level of the complete recording.

    It would be interesting how much playing noise is left if you add the same amount of recording noise to the sample mock up.

    best wishes
    Herb
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    Iwan, in the risk of being considered rude and cheeky by you, I would like to ask you for the midi file you used for the Siedlaczek and Dan Dean versions. (the VSL one would useless to me as I have no performance tool).

    I´m programming the bassoon for one of my themes, and I can´t get the legato to sound quite right and your technique sounds very good to me. Maybe your midi file and a couple of notes from you regarding how you did it might help me to improve my "faked legato" technique. Mine sounds a bit too much artificial (specially with winds)

    Obviously, if this is asking too much, or you wanna keep any "professional secrets" (if there are any still around) I would totally understand.

    On the other hand, if you wanna make my day this is my email adress:

    JavierMerono@nucmed.e.telefonica.net


    Hopefully I will be able to improve my legato until the day I have the budget to buy VSL.
    Thanks.

    Javier.
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    I just want to add a "wow" to this discussion. The VSL version is by far the most convincing and expressive. The note transitions are just uncanny, giving it such an organic believable quality, so much like a real bassoon being played.

    I'm surprised by the click comments, as I think they are very quiet and not pronounced at all. And with some slight distance added via reverb, they would be even less noticeable.

    All I can say is, please do more of this piece!!! I'm just waiting for the clarinets to come in.

    Anyway, thanks for posting these demos.
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    @herb said:


    It would be interesting how much playing noise is left if you add the same amount of recording noise to the sample mock up.
    If you normalize the first bar of the "Sacre" of an original recording, you will here tons of noise. I can't make the test now, cause I don't have a recording here at the moment. But I would say the first bar (where the bassoon is playing complete solo) is 30 to 40 dB lower than the maximum level of the complete recording.



    Herb,

    I did record all three samples on the same audio track, without changing any setting .I did not normalize the recordings. You are right, the level is about this far from maximum. If you like, I can do this test and send it to you. Of course my playing could be somewhat different from each other, but I do think that the VSL patch is louder than the others by itself. Actually the only editing I did was putting 4 db + on the Dan Dean recording. The reverb was the built in Gigastudio one. I use MAC OS X and in order to use my Waves and Altiverb I must restart in System 9.

    All the best

    Iwan
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    [quote=Netvudu]On the other hand, if you wanna make my day this is my email adress:

    JavierMerono@nucmed.e.telefonica.net


    quote]

    Javier,
    I will send you a mail with the MIDI files and comments. Actually there is not much comments to ad, because they where just played in, in one shot, without a metronome or tempo help of any kind.

    Iwan
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    Hi Iwan!

    Did you use the same MIDI file for all three versions, or did you just play the line differently for each? It looks like each line is really played differently, and the AO version looks more consistently played... Am I wrong?

    Martin
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    @MartinL said:

    Hi Iwan!

    Did you use the same MIDI file for all three versions, or did you just play the line differently for each? It looks like each line is really played differently, and the AO version looks more consistently played... Am I wrong?

    Martin


    Martin,

    You did hear right, I did play three times, eg= 3 MIDI files. About the AO, I do not really know, but it was the last one, so I allready had some practice behind [:O]ops:

    Thanks for listening

    Iwan
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    @Another User said:

    Javier,
    I will send you a mail with the MIDI files and comments. Actually there is not much comments to ad, because they where just played in, in one shot, without a metronome or tempo help of any kind.


    Iwan, that would be great. Thanks very much. (I added my name so you
    stopped thinkin on Cleopatra [:D] ) I´ll wait for your mail.


    As for my clicks comment, I hope everybody will be able to understand from my posts that my surprise derives from the fact that, as I said before, I´ve never played a bassoon and never realized the keys made such a noticiable noise. It sounded weird to me. Probably is more realistic, but I couldn´t help to feel weird about it. If I said I didn´t I would be lying!
    This being said, hearing the instrument into the orchestra could possibly make me see my mistake.

    Maybe the next few bars would show us how it works better [8-)] [[;)]]

    Javier.
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    The VSL version sound a lot more organic - living, breathing, yearning - as if there were a human in the equation. Great comparision Iwan - thanks.
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    it sounds to me that the VSL version is the "slowest" responding on the faster figures/appog.'s...
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    Hehe - you guys, I hate to point this out, but now that I've read everyone's reactions, it occured to me that the piece in question uses a very unusual range for the bassoon. I wonder how much these clicks would show up in the more manageable mid- and low-ranges. Hmmmmmm. [:O]

    Of course, in a well EQ'd stereo setting, the bassoon would have a great deal more distance and reverb, so the clicks would simply be a nice touch or realism to an already-pleasing sound.

    My 2 cents

    Emlyn
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    Well the clicks are BETWEEN the notes, since the note has to be fingered before it's played. In legato there's the sound of the transition, but still most of the tone is after fingering.
    I can't really imagine that range would effect it at all. Unless of course the mechanism for the normal range isn't as noisy. Also, the frequency range of metallic clicks is very high. Certainly way higher than the highest tone a bassoon can play.

    Anthony
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    @tonylombardi said:

    Well the clicks are BETWEEN the notes, since the note has to be fingered before it's played. In legato there's the sound of the transition, but still most of the tone is after fingering.
    I can't really imagine that range would effect it at all. Unless of course the mechanism for the normal range isn't as noisy. Also, the frequency range of metallic clicks is very high. Certainly way higher than the highest tone a bassoon can play.
    Anthony


    Anthony,

    1. The samples from the beginning of the Rite of spring are not the usual range of the Bassoon. Stravinsky did like to use the instruments in register which are not considered as "normal". He want it to sound difficult. In some ranges the frequencies of the clicks will be more covered then in others. I guess that in case of the bassoon, while playing low notes, for which the bassoon was originally, build [[[;)]]] the clicks may be less. Also it depends how close the listener, or mic, is and the room you record. Some acoustic have tendency to amplify the key noise. Also of course the player should put some oil on the keys from time to time, which most of us do not, in order that the instrument is silent, I mean click silent.... [[[;)]]]

    In fast passages the clicks can be sometime used as replacement for percussion [:D]
    Iwan