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  3. Sempre Staccato por favor

  • Sempre Staccato por favor

    N
    N
    I just recently received my orchestral cube and I think it's great. One thing I think that is missing is staccatissimo samples for all the instruments. So far, I've noticed this to especially be a problem with the bassoon and clarinet as these instruments seem to have only one type of staccato and it's on the relatively long side. They get really muddy with moving lines in fast tempos.

    Are there any plans for staccatissimos to be sampled? Seems like it would be one of the less time consuming techniques to record.
  • W
    W
    On the other hand! ---

    I totally disagree that the staccato samples are too long or would be muddy at all. I have now examined all of the samples in the library in their raw wav files and they are the best I've ever heard. Every one of the staccato notes, without exception, has two variants for rapid sequential playing on one pitch. All in four dynamic levels.

    In fact, one of the things I am most impressed in this library is the quiet staccati - p and pp variants that are unprecendented in sampling for their perfect attacks and precise recording. The only thing faster that you could play would be some extremely rapidly articulated scales (that very few professional players could do by the way) - which the VSL is going to provide on the Symphonic Cube.
  • I
    I
    Hmm.... [*-)]:

    This is interesting! As someone who is considering buying the library, it would be interesting to know who is right. Maybe a short mp3 sample file from either one of you to make his point would quite be of some help.

    Thanks

    Igor
  • N
    N
    Igor - buy the library it's worth it regardless.

    William - I don't disagree that the recorded staccatos are excellent and have their place. But there are musical situations where I need staccatissimo not staccato - for example, in my case recently, to achieve a humourous effect with a moving bassoon line. The currently provided staccato samples were not appropriate for this and the result was not usable. And a disagree, an actually player would be able to perform this easily - just mark the part sempre stacc and that's that.

    Anyway, the purpose of my thread was to make a request for an additional articulation not to make a complaint.

    Dietz - any chance of this happening?
  • I
    I
    Slaroussels,

    Thanks for putting things straight! I think I do understand exactly what you mean. I also had this impression while fiddling around whit de demo samples.

    Anyway im IMO the woodwinds -exept flute- are not on the level of the other instruments. It is not the recording-sampling, but the sound quality of the players, which I think could be better.

    Is the VSL library featuring up and down bow patches -single notes, not phrases- for the strings? I could not make this out until now. I do use Garritan which has up and down bows and I would miss this, if it is not included.

    Thanks

    Igor
  • W
    W
    Slaroussels,
    I wonder if in this situation the problem could be solved simply by shortening the envelope release tail? Then note length could be used to prevent an artificial regularity, especially on such short notes.

    But I understand how you probably want the actual sample, rather than the performance of it, to be that short (which is VERY short in this case). I certainly agree it is always good to have more samples to choose from though with the number this library already has...

    Igor - all of the strings have two samples each for every short note, whether detache or staccato, in all dynamics. They are not specifically listed as up or down bows as Garritan strings are. Except in a fortissimo downbow, it is often impossible without seeing the players to tell the difference between section upbows or downbows in every case.
  • K
    K
    For faster staccs, you may want to consider piccking up the performance edition. The repetition samples were created just for these types of purposes.

    You get the varied tounguing and articulation of players, since they are really played but the players this way.

    You get many more variations on short articulations played at different speeds, untilmately giving you two things. The ultimate Machine gun killer, and more realistic short articulation performances in repeititions like 16th note triad movements for ostinatos and such.
  • I
    I
    William,

    I am aware that it is possible to cheat with bowing patches, but this is not the real problem. Important is to change patches in order to avoid the mechanical uniform effect. Garittan has (many) patches where up and down bows are combined with intonation and timbre variations, which are very effective. So you do not have to program a patch change for each bow direction change, which is really a pain. Using the Garritan library it is possible to do it with Maestro tools or - as I do it, for total control, by transposing the up bow 3 octaves up. If you do own Garittan you will understand.....

    I am wondering if such a possibility also exists in the VSL?

    Out of topic: I bought Garittan after hearing the first user demos on his site, and I must say that it is the first sample library where YES, I do have received for what I paid for....! And during the last 6 years I did spend over 20'000 $ in sample libraries , so now I am careful..... It would be really good, if they're would be a possibility to hear what the users can achieve with VSL.

    Most of the demo patches from VSL -with exception of some woodwind patches - sound great, but this is not enough to make the library usable and worth the price.

    Thanks

    Igor
  • G
    G
    last edited
    last edited

    @William said:

    Slaroussels,
    I happen to know however that Garritan does not actually use all upbows for upbows - in some cases he uses simply an alternate, less aggressive downbow. Except in a fortissimo downbow, it is often impossible without seeing the players to tell the difference between section upbows or downbows in every case, and Garritan uses this ambiguity.


    William,

    Pardon me for poking in on the VSL forum, but let me clear up some inaccuarate information that was posted. The down-bow samples are recorded down-bows and the up-bow samples are recorded up-bows. There was a rare and ocassional bad sample where a replacement was necessary. The approach VSL takes is also an excellent approach and can work as well. I realize that sometimes it is difficult to differentiate between up-bows and down-bows, but what you post about GOS is not the case.

    Gary Garritan
  • N
    N
    For those interested, I did try fiddling with the release envelopes today on the bassoon staccatos and found that cutting the value in half was very helpful to clean up the sound on more rapid passages. Not the same as an actual staccatissimo, but a decent interim solution. Plenty of reverb is then necessary, of course, to cover up the the very abrupt decay of the release.
  • W
    W
    I wanted to add that after listening to the release sample instruments, I tend to agree more with Slaroussels now about the staccatissimo.

    The release samples are so realistic, they make me never want to use an envelope release again. And so having exactly the length of sample you need becomes more desirable. Of course on this short a staccato you would not use release samples at all, but simply sustain them and their shortness would accomplish the same goal. But it would have the principle of maintaining the same beautiful naturalness that the other notes have.