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  3. what if.....

  • what if.....

    B
    B
    ok, it´s childish and off topic, but I always wonder, what if the great composers of the past would have had these toys, would our collection of master pieces be different [*-)]:

    Would it matter to these guys to be able to listen to their creations, or is it just a lazyness of modern day to not be able to see everything in advance inside the head.

    Hmm lots of possibilities here [[:|]]

    Geert.
  • M
    M
    Well, here's a story that happened around 1989:

    I took lessons in composition and orchestration with a wonderful old Professor of Music who was in his seventies. He was able to sit down at a desk, write a 4-part fugue for string quartet, hearing it in his head all the while, and then sit down and play it on the piano.

    At the time, I had a studio with an Atari computer, some synths and a sampler. I invited my teacher around to show him the new technology which I'd told him about. He sat down at the keyboard with a string sample loaded and promptly improvised a remarkable and complex picece. Then I gave him some woodwinds and he rattled off a trio for oboes and basson. Same with a harp, percussion and everything I threw at him.

    Suddenly, he went all silent and became obviously quite despondent and depressed. I asked what was wrong and he replied "I was born 40 years too early".

    So, although he had the remarkable ability of audio "visualisation", he still would have been delighted to have the tools in real life. He died a few years later, with a pile of manuscripts in his drawer of works that he'd never heard performed.

    Regards - Colin
  • B
    B
    hmm, rather sad story for your teacher....

    so, you think that it would indeed be very different if we took a look into the 2002 EMI catalogue when Bach and Mozart had Sibelius and VSL?

    Regards,

    Geert.
  • W
    W
    I don't think it is childish or off the topic at all to think about the meaning of samplers to composers. It is the most important thing in a way. I think the great composers of the past would have gone APE with the Vienna Symphonic Library! One thing I have always noticed is that music is considered almost always from the standpoint of performers and NOT composers. The conclusion has often been that samplers were to be frowned upon because they put performers out of work.

    Of course, many performers have gotten work BECAUSE of sampling technology, whether by recording samples, or by playing solos with otherwise sampled recordings.

    But all of that is beside the point in a way, because from the standpoint of a composer, this is the greatest development in the history of music. For the first time an individual has the ability to write with sound itself, instead of with only the symbols for sounds.

    That is a fascinating story about the old professor, and very significant too, because it shows that samplers are not merely a crutch or a substitute, but a tremendous tool in themselves that allow a composer or orchestrator to perfect a musical idea in actual sound. Not for selling, or substituting, or cheapening the process, but for pure artistic expression. The amount of control one now has, especially with the level VSL is on, is beyond what most conductors ever have, given the fact that rehearsal time is so short, and the performers in a live orchestra are not always in tune, expressive, or even on the right pitch! Having been a professional player in orchestras and bands, I know this from painful experience.

    Also, I think it is important to remember that most orchestras are not like the London Symphony, the Philadelphia Orchestra or the Berlin Philharmonic. A composer is much more likely to get a local group or a student orchestra to play his music, unless he has reached the pinnacle of success (and is probably at least 80 years old.)

    Sorry to go on and on but I think the sampler is potentially a great musical instrument in itself - very demanding, complex and expressively beautiful, and deserving of serious artistic status as well as commercial value.
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    Great thread. Keep those messages coming!

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • P
    P
    Well, I for one know that I would never be able to do what I do now if not for samplers and computers. I am not a professional musician and never went to music school - I was never trained to write music with a staff on paper. Without all this stuff I'd never be able to compose or arrange anything.

    So I don't know how much Beethoven would have benefited from this technology, but I know there are a lot of people out there who use it who wouldn't be able to do anything if not for this - I'm sure it's unlocked music for countless people.
  • B
    B
    Totaly agree with you !!

    We creatives and not absurdly famous (to speak for myself) know the value of a sampler. It's capabilities as a pre-playback device are sort of a Gods-mercy for the composer who doesn't own an Orchestra. [[;)]]

    But, and this I know from my conducter period, most people involved with classical music think the sampler and electronically created (classical) music is brought to humanity by the Devil !
    I used to bring my Atari/sampler to rehearsels, and although the players quickly got used to the electronically generated examples, the "intellectuals" around us (not creative) didn't have a positive word for it. They were gossiping behind my back about having less creative brainpower and needing machines for compensation. The same "intellectuals" could spend evenings "listening" to music, but always ended up in energy sucking discussions about microscopical details in recording A compared to B and blah so blah on blah... completely missing the point of music in general, and in my opinion that is enjoying it !!

    For me, beautifull music played by a sampler is still beautifull music. The fakeness doesn't do much harm. Because quality is quality. for example; If someone says he likes the Goldberg variations, but doesn't like it when played by someone on a cheap Casio keyboard, why should that person suddenly enjoy it when played on a Steinway. Do you in that case really understand the composition? Or do you just like the sound of a Concert piano. I never understood that issue, but it is real for tons of people. And the endless discussions about it really make me tired [:'(]

    But with VSL it is possible to fool even trained ears I hope, certainly with totally new compositions.

    hehe love it !!

    Geert.
  • D
    D
    In short, a well sampled professional orchestra will sound better than a medocre live group any day, especially if the live group is not miked properly. That my own humble opinion and experience.
    Cheers
    Dave
  • N
    N
    I can imagine what Beethoven would do:

    1. he would complain the sounds were too "choppy" even though he couldn't hear them.

    2. even if gigastudio worked flawlessly, he'd still smash the PC, just because.... he's Beethoven
  • W
    W
    Yes, Beethoven would probably smash his sampler to pieces in a very dramatic fashion. But he would appreciate the technology and would merely have gotten carried away in a momentary fit of passion that he would later regret.

    I am still thinking about all the unplayed pieces of music in the great composers' lifetimes. How terrible it is (to take only one example) that Schubert's C Major symphony (The Great) sat in a drawer and was not even played once until many years after his death. To write such a piece of music, with complete mastery of compositional technique and the utmost artistry, and never once hear it played - that is a crime committed by society! Of course it is true that he as well as Beethoven could hear the music internally, but that is not the same thing as having the sounds coming at you from outside, assaulting you physically with their beauty. It is a magnificent experience even if you know exactly what the final orchestration should sound like.

    And that is exactly why the best sampled sounds, the recordings that attempt above all to capture exactly what the instrument does - without anything added or anything taken away - are so wonderful. Because one can actually hear these purely musical ideas that previously were only imagined - immediately. After all, hearing only one perfectly played note is rare for an orchestral player. And this library gives you 1.5 million? Astounding. As Bach said about playing the organ, "All you have to do is put all the notes in order." But now one has not only notes but the most delicate and refined articulations, variations and connections of notes. it is an awesome challenge, but one that is tremendously exciting.
  • N
    N
    oh, so nicely put.
    you make me want to get this even more.
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    last edited
    last edited

    @William said:

    [...]Of course it is true that he as well as Beethoven could hear the music internally, but that is not the same thing as having the sounds coming at you from outside, assaulting you physically with their beauty. [....]


    ... and you simply can't share this experience with others as long as you hear the music in your head only. No cheering, no applause, no critics, no money - no feedback in any way, be it emotional, social or economical.

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • W
    W
    I suppose that I would add to this that though I have complained about technical problems with the Gigastudio, etc. , I still am extremely excited about what has been done by this great recording project.

    I have to say that I believe it is appropriate that it is in the homeland of the inventors of the symphony orhcestra, and what is to me and many other Americans (not to mention other people) the origin of the greatest musical inspirations in history - Germany and Austria - that this, the most advanced attempt at modern musical expression - has been made. I am in absolute admiration and respect for this company and this musical library. It is so obviously the work of a true musical intelligence, rather than a mere commercial project. That is what excites me the most of all - that it can be a resource for purely artistic expression. And it truly is.

    Sincerely,
    William
  • J
    J
    Actually, the beauty of a library such as the VSL is that it offers unprecedented freedom to all composers. No committees/groups/individuals-in-key-positions to assess your work to see if it is ‘worthy’ to be performed, you can just be yourself and develop in your own direction, and you can let yourself be heard to everyone without being scrutinized. We now have a luxury of freedom, public exposure and possibilities for development that many composers in the past could only dream of.
    Yes, we are a very privileged bunch of people with all these tools at our disposal.
  • R
    R
    ...and I have the distinct feeling, that all this is only the start of a great development. Don't get me wrong - I totlly agree with you. Fantastic times, lucky we are. VSL seems to be the most complete approach to orchestral sampling ever, but we have to set up quite a bunch of machines to use those great sounds simultaneously and intuitively. The future will be more comfortable and ergonomic: Less technical fuzz, more creative output. I am looking forward to what still might come in that area.

    Greetings

    Roman Beilharz
  • M
    M
    Beethoven hated the metronome! imagine a PC!!!
    bach thought the piano to be a worthless invention - sounded dull to him!
    who knows for sure how they would have used this stuff. when i studied thoery- comp many moons ago i conclued that
    1. that the masters spoke music like "normal" people use words.
    2. fo me its about what notes and WHY! the notes determine everything voice laeding 1st ! THEN orchestraion. theses tools tempt the naive to reverse the process.
    nevertheless its great to heve these tools ! ! already i am using my k2000 orchestral sounds to " mock up what i will do in the giga!!
    a mock up of a mock up??!!
  • W
    W
    That's a good point about reversing the process. In the past, some composers were accused of being "mere orchestrators" when they wrote elaborate scores. Mahler was caricatured as conducting his symphony with a group that included a kitchen sink. Of course he was one of the greatest composers and that was a bias against new uses of the orchestra.

    But nowadays it's very easy to fall into this trap of pretty fluff. It seems to me that about 80 to 90% of film music is just orchestration. Not that I'm against film music - some of it is great, but a lot of composers rely on their arrangers to smear a violin section over a trite melody to make it palatable, or use a full romantic symphony orchestra to play two stupid lines that could better be noodled on a piano.
  • N
    N
    Amen to that William, but that could lead into a potential "commercial or quality music" topic, which is as old as music itself.

    Not to criticize VSL people election of demos, but what William exposed was precisely the reason I liked a million times more The Blue Danube demo than the new Air Force One uh...one [:)]

    Though, I must say the election of Jerry Goldsmith for that soundtrack was consequent with what the movie was offering...uh...I think I´m being a bit too much sarcastic and faceless, so I´ll stop now. [6]

    Somehow, it seems the Blue Danube demo is more in the spirit of the VSL library.
  • W
    W
    I have to admit I was a bit surprised when they took down the Blue Danube from the spotlight position. That incredible legato horn sold me INSTANTLY.