piano?

[ngstime]

hello,
the demos sound great!
I like working on piano concertos as a hobby, are there any plans for adding a piano to this? wouldn't a complete orchestral library be incomplete without one?

ngstime

[Dietz]

Good question - but we decided to keep this for later.

... it won't be easy to sample a concert-grand according to our own criterias, especially when it comes to legatos or repetitions ... 8-/

Anyway - thanks for your interest!

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

[William]

Ngstime, you might want to try the Gigapiano - it sounds more like a piano than some pianos I've played.
William

[ngstime]

I'd like to see a "THE" piano library to go with "THE" orchestra library.
Seems like as big and nice as giga type pianos are, there is still always a compromise. There are some really nice pianos librarys out there, so don't take me wrong.

I'd like to see something really "GRAND" in a piano, like every note, 16 layers: up pedal, down, release(heck, while I'm at it.... lets make it 32 layers) 24 bit.... so what if it takes several machines to use it (or several takes on one machine)

Seems like if it was done in the same studio (the silent stage) then they (VSL and the piano) would mix well together.

[Laurent]

multiple velicity won't do anything, I thing the VSL team will find something more advanced and subtile, like emulating the resonance of the sound box, as well as the strings vibration while pedal is down. tremolos when pedal is down and every element in the piano is getting crazy, end of sound with big noise when pedal goes slowly up after many loud notes, etc... It represents a lot of work [*-)]

[ngstime]

multible velocity won't do anything? how could it not? a side from more volume, a fff note has more growl then a ff note, the strings are vibrating harder, as subtile as it maybe, it's still there. just like the sound of a pedal releasing, it's subtile, but it's still there. faking layers falls under "compromise".

push the envolope! VSL is.

[herb]

To be honest, we have great respect for polyphonic instruments with a big resonance body [;)]
In my opinion sampled pianos work wonderful if they are played monophonically. Playing chords especially in the middle registers, where our ears are most trained - hm.

We think, that a piano is the most difficult instrument to simulate via samples. Interesting also that pianos are the most often sampled instruments.
A software solution detecting which keys are played simultaneously or one after another (open pedal) and renders their influence would be the solution - maybe.

But we could reconsider our recording plans, if Vienna Symphonic Library users really want to have a sampled steinway or boesendorfer perfectly matching with our other instruments.

best wishes
Herb

[Steve44]

I'd like to chime in here and send people who are interested in good Piano sampling libraries over to a most useful website that compares practically every piano sample library available for Gigastudio.

The site is: http://www.purgatorycreek.com/pianocompare.html There are probably forty different mp3's of the same minute and a half long midi file being played into Gigastudio with everything from the GigaPiano to the East West Steinway and Boesendorfers. There are also quite a few good hardware module/keyboard comparisons, some soft synths, and of course William Busch's studio Steinway B.

Everybody who's designed a Gigastudio Piano claims it's the best thing ever. And they are spectacular - they give you as many as eight stereo layers per key (four pedal down, four pedal up) and are quite expressive and of course, never looped. But there will always be some failings in a sample library, especially when it's produced with one guy in charge. The really cool thing to me about VSL (okay, one of many cool things) is that it's created by a team of amazingly intelligent and thoughtful musicians who somehow manage to explore every possible problem and question about the sampling process and actually come up with solutions.

There have been technologies designed to emulate string resonance, and to model the aspects of repeated notes affecting a resonating string, and there are many effects processors (including the Korg Triton) that have a "Piano body/damper resonance" effect. But few of these have ever led to a more playable or more perfect sounding piano sound, usually because they have only augmented the limited nature of small scale keyboard sampling. But besides these techniques and large samples and many velocity layers, I could imagine there being a set of "performance tools" to implement special techniques for the total all-encompassing piano library.

But I also hardly see the point: In my mind, the idea of the performance tool is to translate the way one instrument works to the interface of a keyboard controller. A piano already is a keyboard instrument, and if the sampling technology can only get the sound 97% there, I think that's fine. I can't really play the piano without strings resonating in front of me, even on just an upright. I play completely differently on the real thing than on a keyboard. But maybe now I'm putting my foot in my mouth...

[William]

What Steve44 is saying here is almost exactly what I was going to write. I think that what Herb is talking about is the most theoretically perfect sample recording of a piano, but that is not necessary to me because if I want it that perfect I will just go and record on a damned piano. So it becomes academic to me whether it can be done. The main point is that it sound good, not EXACTLY LIKE a piano down to the repeated resonating strings, etc. An example is the Miraslav piano, which from the standpoint of awesome sampling firepower is pathetic - yet it sounds very good in certain musical contexts because it was well recorded. No, it won't work on everything Franz Lizst would have played, but it doesn't have to.

On the other hand, there is NOTHING AT ALL - prior to the VSL - that creates the sound of legato strings with samples. All libraires previously have merely used smooth portato or limited radical glissandi or mere overlapping of ends and beginning of samples. And the legato is probably one half at least of expressive string playing. Ask any string player. And so that has not even been heard in sampling, let alone perfected.

It seems people have a vastly higher standard for piano sampling than for orchestral instrument sampling. And also, one must not forget that the symphony orchestra is often considered as an enormous, single instrument in itself. And so the detail that Herb talks about being applied to a piano sample he has actually applied to the great instrument known as the orchestra.

[Netvudu]

I totally agree with the last two posts. It´s all about having a fairly realistic sound, not a purely perfect sound with all the little nuances and subtleties because someone so much worried about that (usually) buys a real piano.

I understand it´s the job of the peolpe at VSL looking for the most ultra-realistic set of samples, but it´s also our prerogativa as musicians evaluating our real needs and set a list of personal preferences. I would rather see an easy-to-use attack on brass instruments than the perfect piano. (not implying VSL brass instruments are bad.They´re probably great...I haven´t even tried VSL! it was just an example).

[ngstime]

ok.... I'm a little confused here the impression i'm getting is: even after getting VSL, people plan on settling on a piano to use with it, because a realistic sampled piano is not important? why bother looking at VSL, because it's not gonna cover up a below par piano, not when the piano is up front in a concerto. or a realistic sampled piano will never compare to the real thing. well as nice as that sounds, I for one will never own a boesendorfer (well.... maybe, but not anytime soon) but properly tuning and recording to match VSL is gonna be a battle in itself. again, why even bother looking at VSL? the same argument can be made about a real orchestra. I have vision and a dream and I believe such a thing can be done. If I could do it myself I would. and if you think that sounds stupid, then I guess I would send you Herbs way and he could tell you otherwise.