Indeed and agreed-- a friendly discussion of a well-worn topic.

There is so much to recommend about both DP and Logic, and both have their own unique issues.

I prefer DP's workflow with MIDI routing, mixing and audio editing. I find it to be a very elegant interface. Often, I find myself not even thinking about DP which allows me to become much more absorbed in the needs of the music itself. In that respect, DP sort of chose me in a way rather than my choosing it.

Much has been said in favor about the efficiency of Logic's audio engine, and I really think there is some merit to this where Apple has a major hand in the development of the OS, the app, and the basic hardware. I do appreciate its plugins and how it handles audio in general. The time stretch algorithms are wonderful. If one works with loops, they are rewarded with some very nice convenience features as well.

I use both for different reasons because I don't believe there's one single utility that is ideal for everyone or for every purpose.

Very interesting JWL.

So for orchestral midi mockups you prefer DP. But for loop based stuff you feel logic is a better option?

If you don't mind me asking what interfaces are you using? I have motu stuff but was thinking about changing over to apogee.

I've never used DP -- I've been a Logic user since Opcode's Studio Vision Pro disappeared off the market -- but every time I see one of those ads showing that Michael Giacchino uses DP, I get curious about it.

I will say this though: if you haven't used Logic since the emagic days, you're in for a pleasant surprise. I remember how horrible the learning curve was for Logic. I couldn't even set it up initially, and had to hire someone to do it for me. But since Apple Apple-ized it, it really is much more user-friendly and less unwieldy. Even the setup has been simplified through one of those setup wizards where it auto-detects your hardware, yada yada yada. That's not to say that Logic is a piece of cake to jump into and play with, but once you start to get it under your fingers, you feel more like it's a friend and less like it's the enemy you're trying to beat into submission.

Kerry

Hi Kerry,

Thanks for your response!!! Trying to decide whether to make the jump. Anyone else out there that has both, your comments would be most welcome!!!!

I use Logic and occasionally play with DP. If you were going to switch, I would wait for the upcoming next version of Logic. Apparently an update is coming that's so huge that the name of the app might change.

apple renames every app they purchase from a third party sooner or later - with logic it seems to have been later [;)]

The rumors have been that it will be a Logic + ProTools-esque hybrid.. probably to be the companion to FinalCut that ProTools is to Avid. I agree though -- I'd hold out a little longer before splurging, just to see what the new Logic looks like. At the end of the day, though, it's probably one of those questions of "religion" -- they're all kind the same, it just depends on what you like better.

@Simsy said:

Very interesting JWL.

So for orchestral midi mockups you prefer DP. But for loop based stuff you feel logic is a better option?

If you don't mind me asking what interfaces are you using? I have motu stuff but was thinking about changing over to apogee.

From the looks of things, I'd say that the GUI of Logic is wonderful for easy loop management. I got Logic when the First Edition of VSL was released just to have access to the ESX24, so I can't say that I've done anything but linear orchestral work with Logic. That's not to say that Logic and DP cannot be used for both purposes. Logic makes quick work of some things-- DP makes quick work of other things. Much of it is a matter of personal taste where workflow is concerned.

I, too, am considering an Apogee DA 16-x front end for my main computer (4 banks of ADAT), and am looking at the RME Hammerfall PCI cards for slave Macs (both audio and midi in one). Right now, I'm using a MacPro and a G5 2.5 Dual, both with MOTU 2408s, and am currently adding two more slaves (one at a time!).

Some of this will hinge on the timing of the release of true 64-bit threading apps where the addition of slaves is currently the only way to get around the RAM limits of 32-bit threading when running everything in real-time.

All of this is so co-depenedent because if 64-bit threading will do what it says it will do, I'd rather not throw $15k at additional computers now instead of putting part of that money into upgrading my audio interfaces and maxing out each computer with RAM. The potential of 64-bit threading with a MacPro and a G5 could be substantial enough to warrant *not* adding too many slaves too soon. I may start with one extra slave in the meantime... (and I've decided to keep it an all-Mac network for personal reasons). But, I can still make good use of 4 machines regardless.

This gets us back to the DP/Logic issue. It is my personal opinion that Logic will get to 64-bit before DP does, but there's no telling how soon after Logic makes the leap that DP will follow. To be honest, there's no telling exactly when Logic will finally make that leap, but many hope that after Leopard is released the wait won't be very long, considering that Logic hasn't been updated in quite a while. Winter NAMM, 2008 would be my earliest estimate.

Then, there will be the plugin waiting game followed by a period of bug tweaking. I'll definitely upgrade both DP and Logic when they go to 64-bit. I'm not sure I could live without either at this point.

My prediction is that Logic 8 is going to be a lot like Logic 7 and the rumors are overblown.

@JWL said:

This gets us back to the DP/Logic issue. It is my personal opinion that Logic will get to 64-bit before DP does, but there's no telling how soon after Logic makes the leap that DP will follow.

I use DP but recently picked up Logic for half price with and educational discount (otherwise I wouldn't have.) One of my incentives was the idea that Logic could be in the 64 bit world and working for a consideble amount of time before DP. So even just having a MacPro hosting tons VI's in Logic is a welcome idea.

Logic does not seem nearly as plain and as intuitive as DP I would say (as far as learning) but most people who use it love it so I would say check out both programs with an eye for the future potential as well.

@Kerry Muzzey said:

The rumors have been that it will be a Logic + ProTools-esque hybrid.. probably to be the companion to FinalCut that ProTools is to Avid. I agree though -- I'd hold out a little longer before splurging, just to see what the new Logic looks like. At the end of the day, though, it's probably one of those questions of "religion" -- they're all kind the same, it just depends on what you like better.

As long as we're rumoring - do you mean LITERALLY a Logic/Pro Tools hybrid, i.e., a version of Logic that integrates seamlessly with PT?

PL

fwiw-- of the references to PT with respect to the next version of Logic came from articles such as this one which floated around the web a few months ago:

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/2/27/7253

I don't think anyone would argue against better integration-- if that's part of Apple's plan, especially where PT is concerned. Not everyone wants to do their MIDI mockups in PT, but chances are many will have to encounter some part of a production where the work they do comes into contact with PT.

The truth is, we really don't know what Apple has in mind for the next Logic. But it's more likely that PT is far too firmly established in the industry as a go-to workstation for way too many high-profile productions for it to be so easily derailed by a Logic update.

Users would certainly appreciate better project interchange. That alone would do more to make any of these companies a hero in the eyes of those users who've ever struggled with compatibility issues between workstations.

I'm sorry, but to me that article is totally groundless. And everything he says is completely unlikely.

First, they could change the name, but there's absolutely no reason for them to throw away all the present Logic users and start over. It wouldn't surprise me if they made the interface easier to deal with when you first learn it, but they're not going to remove all the things that make Logic so flexible once you figure it out.

And it's also likely that they understand what it is people like about Pro Tools that Logic doesn't have. As I've said before, it wouldn't take much to make it work the same way. Everything about PT that makes it easier to edit audio in stems from the way you work directly on the waveform display; in Logic you can only do that in the sample editor. But everything like tabbing to the end/beginning of regions, etc. could follow easily if that one seemingly little operational difference were fixed (and I mean fixed, because the way it works now is broken - much as I like Logic).

That will not make a Pro Tools killer - there's no such thing, as we've seen repeatedly over the years. It's true that everyone would like to be able to interchange sessions more easily, but that's nothing new. OMFs are what they are because I don't see most companies feeling it's a high priority to make them seamless.

If Apple is going to come out with a touch screen - and with Microsoft's table it makes sense they would - it's not going to be dedicated only to Logic.

There's also no reason to *believe* that Logic will acquire 64-bit memory access. We can hope, but I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't happen at all.

What cm says about static RAM essentially solving the memory access problem makes me wonder. Will it be affordable before 64-bit audio programs come along?

@Nick Batzdorf said:

I'm sorry, but to me that article is totally groundless. And everything he says is completely unlikely.

I think that's the crux of the whole thing.

Whatever it will or will not be, the only thing we know for sure is that "we don't know". That alone makes speculation about vaporware a waste of time and energy; much ado about nothing 'yet'.

I only posted the link because the term "killer" was used earlier in the thread and some members may not have seen the original blog from a few months ago.

More constructive would be to continue weighing the pros and cons of the versions of Logic and DP we have now and even here only in the context of how each can app facilitates using the Cube for different users' workflows.

@Kerry Muzzey said:

-- but every time I see one of those ads showing that Michael Giacchino uses DP, I get curious about it.Kerry

Which goes to show no matter what you buy, you can write crap using just about anything.

Like Kerry, always been a Logic user and before that the stuff on an Atari 1080 with 4 megs of ram - I forget the name. You can write better stuff on an Atari than a state of the art Mac with bombastic amounts of hard drives and ram. The talk about Logic 8 seems to concentrate on the accessibility of more than the current approximate 3.5 gigs of accessible ram. I would be pleased to see that and move on to a Mac Pro Dual 3 litre Bastard or whatever it's called.

Somehow, I get the feeling this might not happen though.

@PaulR said:

...always been a Logic user and before that the stuff on an Atari 1080 with 4 megs of ram - I forget the name.

If I recall, that was the C-Lab sutff-- Creator/Notator.

Just for the sake of nostalgia:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/images/notator1.gif">

@PaulR said:

...always been a Logic user and before that the stuff on an Atari 1080 with 4 megs of ram - I forget the name.

If I recall, that was the C-Lab sutff-- Creator/Notator.

Just for the sake of nostalgia:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/images/notator1.gif">


Heheh! That's the one. Yes, that reminds me of a few years gone by. I still have the Atari and the C lab with dongle etc if anyone wants it. Great piece of kit in my view because one didn't get bogged down with 'what ifs'. You just had to get on with what you were writing.

How do you DP users get around MOTU's pretty archaic way of rendering/mixing down to a stereo audio track? I bought DP in January via a competitive cross-grade since I wanted something that handled CC7 volume better than Logic does but found DP5's interface really antiquated and overly convoluted. I had used Sonar on PC prior to that and before that, Mastertracks Pro (and before that Notator 3.1 SL on my Atari ST) so I have been using sequencers since almost day 1 (remember Steinberg's 12? Yeah, I had that too).

Logic's way of mixing down is really elegant but I don't care for how it handles 3rd party plug-ins. With Vienna Instruments, it's not as much of a problem because they are mono-timbral but anything like Kontakt 2 or HALion Symphonic Orchestra are a pain because you cannot separate the volume changes per player (believe me, I've tried but Logic Express cannot do it- so I have to use CC11 instead which isn't quite the same)

My ultimate work around was to buy Cubase 4 which seems like a great middle ground between Logic and DP5. It handles plugs like DP but has a much more elegant interace (like scaleable windows- um, hello MOTU, some of us have myopia).

I still occasionally use Logic because I have all of the Apple Jam packs as well as the fact that the built-in plug-ins on it kill both MOTU and Cubase. At one point I thought of upgrading to Logic Pro instead of MOTU DP but I'm still sort of glad I have DP because of its film scoring features and the fact that its Quickscribe window has THE BEST rhythmic transcription I have ever seen in a MIDI sequencer. Seriously, I can play in septuplets in realtime on the little Mac minikeyboard in realtime and the bloody thing transcribes it beautifully. Logic's notation isn't bad either. Cubase's notation is a mess. I think it's PPQ is far higher than the other two and as such interprets everything as 32nd notes with rests or else weird tuplets. I know there's ways around this but for speed, DP5 and Logic have the edge.

If Apple works out the CC7 thing in Logic 8, I'll happily go back to it. I do like its interface and my workflow on it is pretty quick. Also, my Axiom 25 remote controls can activate the basic transport function on Logic but weirdly not on either DP nor Cubase....

Dave (eagerly awaiting the Saxophones I from the clearance sale)

BTW, Gabriel Yared uses Logic and while he lamented the loss of Vision (lot of film score guys really liked that program!) it looks like he's getting some great results out of it. Not to do any PR but those Yared fans out there might want to check out 1408. It's a nice blend of Yared melodic writing, some atonal BArtok type stuff as well as some fascinating electro-acoustic experimentation like Goldenthal's Alien3 from the '90s. Good stuff.

As for Giacchino, he's done some decent stuff but I agree that a sequencer isn't going to make you write great or bad stuff. Look at John Williams. He doesn't use anything except pencil. manuscript and piano and he seems to be writing some friggin' amazing stuff (still!).

NP- War of the Worlds (John Williams)

@Fiery Angel said:

How do you DP users get around MOTU's pretty archaic way of rendering/mixing down to a stereo audio track? I bought DP in January via a competitive cross-grade since I wanted something that handled CC7 volume better than Logic does but found DP5's interface really antiquated and overly convoluted.

Can you elaborate on "pretty archaic way" etc.? I have many issues with DP, but haven't found that to be the case. Nor, as far as I know, are there any CC7 issues with DP. I know the program very well - would like to know what you mean.

PL