What is everyone doing with their obsolete VSL libraries?

[dbudde]

Now that VI SE is available, this is obsoleting the some of the Horizon series products (at least for the most part). Since it is against the license to sell these, what can be done. Donate them to a University or other educational institution?

Can we transfer the license which includes all the updates, scripts, etc. if we don't sell it?

Hate to just throw these into the trash bin. But they are just going to collect dust otherwise.

Can someone from VSL chime in and give us some guidance?

[cm]

dbudde, as you already mention: the license is not transferable - not with and not without money flowing.
also you have most probably *used* the licenses for receiving discounts on extended libraries of vienna instruments collections ....

if you upgrade from cubase 3 to 4 or logic 6 to 7 this clearly means you cannot *sell* the version you have upgraded from - why should it be different for VSL products?
christian

[stevesong]

My suggestion: keep these libraries - there may be situations in which you will find them useful. I have had occasion to use both the Horizon and VI version of the Solo String library - the VI solo string library is very large but can only run one one computer at a time, so being able to have a few articulations from the Horizon library on another computer has been invaluable.

[dbudde]

You're right. It is no different. And I am not suggesting to sell them. I am not looking to benefit financially. But if I were in the software business, I would do everything possible to get products into the hands of students who can't afford to buy them, so that when they can afford to buy them they will buy my product and won't even consider a competitor's product.

I just hate to see this stuff end up in the garbage can.

Thanks for responding.

[cm]

ahead: it is _not_ software, it is copyrighted sound samples .... well, a decision to hand out free stuff to students is another topic, such a campaign might take place or not sometimes.
please consider the classical VSL sample libraries are more or less in an open format, means everybody can copy the files and actually i don't want to know on how many servers of various universities or P2P networks we would find VSL files already ...
christian

[dbudde]

So let's follow this train of thought a bit further. You have some semi-obsolete copyrighted samples. They're unprotected and so are being copied via p2p sites. And yet your license policies are such such that my giving my copy away violates the license but throwing them in the trash is perfectly acceptable.

What sense does this make?

Why not just make your Horizon series available to everyone for a nominal charge and use that as leverage to your protected products. And/or allow existing owners to donate them to educational institutions without violating their license agreement. You either think the newer products have significantly more value and can justify their prices or you don't.

Lots of companies make older semi-obsolete products available for free or a close to free to encourage new business.

Food for thought.

[stevesong]

@dbudde said:

You have some semi-obsolete copyrighted samples. They're unprotected and so are being copied via p2p sites. And yet your license policies are such such that my giving my copy away violates the license but throwing them in the trash is perfectly acceptable.

What sense does this make?

I couldn't agree more.

[JWL]

@dbudde said:

So let's follow this train of thought a bit further. You have some semi-obsolete copyrighted samples. They're unprotected and so are being copied via p2p sites. And yet your license policies are such such that my giving my copy away violates the license but throwing them in the trash is perfectly acceptable.

What sense does this make?

Why not just make your Horizon series available to everyone for a nominal charge and use that as leverage to your protected products. And/or allow existing owners to donate them to educational institutions without violating their license agreement. You either think the newer products have significantly more value and can justify their prices or you don't.

Lots of companies make older semi-obsolete products available for free or a close to free to encourage new business.

Food for thought.

It all makes sense except for one thing: someone will take ill advantage of this in some way with no regard or respect to proper use or reuse of such material. Unfortunately, it ruins it for everyone especially where such a vast and expensive library is concerned.

The other thing that comes to mind is that the same samples are being used as collections are repackaged and expanded. I'm not 100% sure how this is handled legally or ethically where audio samples are changing hands, but it is indeed a sticky set of circumstances to reconcile.

I do agree that it's rather wasteful in many ways to have such materials sitting around not being put to good use-- or to have them relegated to trashbins and landfills.

If you're dealing with honest people, then there's no question about what to do at all. It just places greater emphasis, sadly, on the notion that this world is filled with mal-intended opportunists for whom the protections were designed.

On a different note, the authorization process is wonky as it is. It may be better than it used to be, but I still wrestle with Syncrosoft more often than should be reasonably allowed. For this reason alone, I wouldn't wish that headache on anyone.

[stevesong]

JWL:

Of course it's true that there are unethical people - - but, I'd guess, more frequently, simply a lot of musicians who lack the financial means to legitimately purchase expensive sample libraries and the software they'd like to have to work with. The latter is, I think, the reason that intensive copy protection is ubiquitous in the music software and sample industries. On the other hand, making sample libraries - - especially those that have been superseded by more advanced versions - - available at affordable prices to educational institutions and students also makes sense (E.g. One of my former students recently purchased Logic from his school bookstore - due to an agreement between the school and Apple - - at a price significantly below Apple's "educational price" - - and Apple is hardly known for reckless generosity - - and, in this case, the condition for obtaining the software at the lower price is that it is not upgradeable).

Such a practice, I think, is not simply altruistic but makes sense from a strictly business-oriented viewpoint. Students who go on to professional work are likely to remember the software and samples they worked with in school and to purchase both from the companies that made them.

I also think, along with JWL, that users who have purchased the newer version of a sample library should have the right to donate the older version to an educational instituion - - which seems to me an altogether more desirable outcome - - for everyone concerned, including the manufacturer of the sample libraries - - than disposing of those libraries in the trash. I strongly believe that legitmizing this kind of license transfer would be very much in the interests of the folks at VSL - - and everyone else.

[JWL]

@stevesong said:

I also think, along with JWL, that users who have purchased the newer version of a sample library should have the right to donate the older version to an educational instituion - - which seems to me an altogether more desirable outcome - - for everyone concerned, including the manufacturer of the sample libraries - - than disposing of those libraries in the trash. I strongly believe that legitmizing this kind of license transfer would be very much in the interests of the folks at VSL - - and everyone else.

I've often wondered about the pros and cons of VIP users returning their older collections to VSL as they upgrade for an extra "honesty bonus" of some sort. That at least would keep the redistribution in the hands of the VSL team which would be handled as they see fit from their business point of view....

But I got stuck on the notion that almost out of the gate many of the discs are obsolete because some installers didn't work or replacement samples and installation files have been required after the discs went to market. (Memories of SE and PE come to mind-- what a nightmare!)

This brings up another side of the same question: what *does* one do with their older discs?

I'm not against the idea of putting old discs to good use, especially if this means it goes into the hands of honest, needy folks who don't have $11k+ to shell out, but there are so many pot holes to fall into along the way-- and as sure as the sky is blue, some idiot will take a very noble idea and figure out a way to totally botch it up.

Maybe VSL has their own plans which avoid the pitfalls of user redistribution?

[stevesong]

Sorry, I meant to say that I agreed with dbudde on the point of being able to donate superseded software and samples to educational institutions.

One of the important aspects here is that if a legitimate way of doing this were provided, it would tend to preclude the illegitimate ways in which such things are often done. I spent many years teaching at a college and it was quite evident to me - - as it is to every college professor - - that many students used "cracked" copies of copy protected software. I never singled anyone out, but I said that as a matter of general principle, one should recognize that creating software takes enormous amounts of intelectual effort as well as signifigant investment of time and resources - - so that if everyone followed the principle that using software "for free" was ok - - if one were clever enough to "crack" the copy protection - - eventually no one would - - or could afford to - - expend the necessary effort, time and resources to create it. (I was making the point that to determine whether one's actions are ethical one needs to imagine that what one does is a universal practice and then judge whether its consequences as a universal practice would be desirable.)

I strongly encouraged my students to purchase the lower priced "student edtions" of the software they used, if they had not already done so.

My campaign was reasonably successful - I can say that every one of my students who went on to pursue music professionally eventually purchased the software that they may have first used illegitimately. However it's important to note that this was made easier by companies who offered lower priced student editions. The idea is to get young people in the habit of doing things ethically in this regard - - but doing this definitely requires the help of manufacturers as well.

Is it not a better fate for a somewhat obsolete sample library that its license be legitimately transferred to an educational institution where hundreds of students will get a chance to work with it - - than that it become part of a landfill? If my experience is any guide, those who go on to pursue music professionally will, most likely, purchase newer versions of what they have already become familiar with. Few educational institutions have the resources to purchase multiple copies of expensive sample libraries - - so making available site licenses at reasonable cost is another constructive possibility. Exposure to such libraries will, I think, help create a loyal future user base for companies who create legitimate and affordable ways for students to encounter their products.

[JWL]

Professor Steve-- you're a good man.... and I personally understood that we both agreed with dbudde.

There appear to be two questions being asked here:

1. why not?
2. how?

The former is an easier issue to address, with it being the motivation behind a topic which has been followed up with numerous reasonable suggestions, including yours.

The latter is the tougher question, ironically, because we do not know VSL's answer to the former question. While a scaled down collection may address the issue of affordability, it doesn't attempt to address what to do with the mountain of DVD ROMs we've amassed over the years.

We may never know VSL's answer to this, but it is clear that the questions are timely and relevant.

[Migu_lez]

I don't think that donating older VSL libraries to educational instiutions is in the best interest of VSL team.

Why do people insist that EVERYONE should be entitled to have everything at an affordable price? I mean, this is an extremely professional library. It is designed for professionals, not for students, right? There are other more affordable libraries in the market for that purpose.

Why would I need to pay top dollars for this library, when I know that some student got it for free? That would diminish its merits. Just imagine that some one says "ok. We'll make all the Ferraris cheap, so anyone can afford them..." Owners would JUMP at this. It would be an insult to them.
Not everyone is meant to have a Ferrari, right? Only those who can afford it. How is it different in VSL (or any other library or software)? [8-)] [8-)]

[hermitage59]

@Miguélez said:

I don't think that donating older VSL libraries to educational instiutions is in the best interest of VSL team.

Why do people insist that EVERYONE should be entitled to have everything at an affordable price? I mean, this is an extremely professional library. It is designed for professionals, not for students, right? There are other more affordable libraries in the market for that purpose.

Why would I need to pay top dollars for this library, when I know that some student got it for free? That would diminish its merits. Just imagine that some one says "ok. We'll make all the Ferraris cheap, so anyone can afford them..." Owners would JUMP at this. It would be an insult to them.
Not everyone is meant to have a Ferrari, right? Only those who can afford it. How is it different in VSL (or any other library or software)? [8-)] [8-)]

I'd have to agree with this, Miguelez.

It would would reduce the value of a Rolls Royce to a Ford, before its time!

Alex.

[stevesong]

@Another User said:

I'd have to agree with this, Miguelez.

It would would reduce the value of a Rolls Royce to a Ford, before its time!

Alex.

I own the Cube for which I paid the going price. If VSL were to make their products more affordable for educational institutions and legitimize donations of earlier versions, I would not feel slighted in the least.

Owning this library is not a matter of owning something "prestigious" like a Rolls Royce whose main purpose is a conspicuous display of the wealth its owner, but a very serious tool for creative musicians.

Steinways and Bösendorfers are a lot more expensive than any sample library and yet the practice rooms of conservatories are populated with these instruments. That came about because of the policies of the companies involved and the generosity of donors. Does anyone think that the students at these conservatories should be condemned to cheap electronic keyboards? Does anyone think that donors ought not to be able to give their own instruments to educational institutions? Is your Steinway diminshed in value by the fact that mine (as I described in another thread) was rebuilt by the chief piano technician at Juilliard - - one of the kindest aand most generous people I've ever met - - for much less than the then going price?

Similarly, conservatories lend some of their most gifted string players instruments worth many times more than any Steinway or Bösendorfer. Steinways and Strads are not, I think, objects whose primary value is conspicuous display of their owners wealth - - they are first and foremost instruments for creating music - as are the VSL libraries. This does not mean that Steinway, Bösendorfer and VSL do not have to make money - - obviously they do in order to continue to exist, innovate and make products of excellence. But what is the best way to insure long term prosperity? Piano manufacturers have long recognized the fact it is in their interest to make it possible for students, whether of limited means or not, to have access to their instruments. Does it diminish the value of these instruments that "mere" students have access to them? Does anyone imagine that Itzhak Perlman feels diminished because a student at Juilliard might have access to an instrument of similar monentary value to his own?

As far as the software business angle is concerned, most major and minor software companies recognize that making student editions of their products is in their own interest. The Student/Teacher edition of MS/Office is $128 while he "full" version is $430, there are similar price differentials between the student and "full" versions of Finale, Sibelius, Cubase, Logic. AutoCAD - the dominant software in the architecture and design industry in the US - - costs thousands of dollars in its full version but is made available in a student edition for a fraction of the cost. I know a lot architects because I'm married to one, and I don't a single architect who is resentful that AutCAD is available in a low-priced student edition. After all, most of them first owned the student edition when they were in school.

These companies do not do this sheerly because they are driven by altruism. Rather, experience has taught them that students grow up and buy the full versions of their software - - and they also know that if they did not make their software available to students at affordable prices, the most likely result would be that the some bright students would find ways to crack the copy protection and their software would then be available for free. In other words, they've recognized that it is in their own interest to provide a legitimate way for students to license their software rather than to create conditions which would, predictably, encourage theft.

I must say that I utterly reject the argument that reinforcing distinctions in economic class between "professionals" and "mere" students is in anyone's interest - - except perhaps for those whose egos are served more by conspicuous consumption rather than by creative achievement. Every professional was once a student. It is doubtful that anyone trained on a Casio keyboard would become a great pianist - a fact that is not lost on Steinway. Steinways and Bösendorfers are designed and built with the capabilities of the greatest pianists in mind, but they are in the practice rooms of conservatories where students - - of whom a few may become great pianists while many more will become piano teachers - and others will give up the idea of any professional career in music - - are trained.

I want to emphasize that what I say here is NOT meant as a criticism of the folks at VSL for whom I have the greatest respect and whose work is of enormous value to composers and musicians. They have most definitely deserve to be rewarded for their effort. However, I suspect that their views on this subject are not fully formed at this point and my hope is that they will consider the views I've as they deliberate about this issue. Christian said that he didn't want to think about the unlicensed copies of the original VSL libraries that may now be on University servers and I am suggesting that there might be a way to create a legitimate path in this situation - one that benefits everyone. For example, a donor to an educational institution or the educational institution itself could be required to pay a reasonable royalty fee for the license transfer or a reasonably yearly licensing fee could be required of the educational institution - - thus creating a new and ongoing revenue stream for VSL. There are, without doubt, a lot of other, potentially constructive, ways of handling this issue. If I am critical of anything it is of the views expressed by the two writers I quoted at the outset.

[cm]

stephen, a tiny but important correction: you have licensed usage of the samples from the symphonic cube, you do not own them - VSL owns them.

if companies like bösendorfer or steinberg donate an instrument to some educational instituton the background is clearly the same you are arguing with: make the students familiar with the instrument and love it so much, that at a later date they might purchase one.

and this is the point: VSL can (and has already done) donate a license for a library - a licensee of a VSL product can not. even if you donate the DVDs, this is just the media and no license is included.
a year ago or so there has been a price-reduced student-version of first edition for sale (actually including the usual upgrade options!)

in my eyes it would not make sense to donate a product which is not state of the art - if you would ask for a Vienna Special Edition Student's Version ... ok, i could understand (although i find the VSE already pricy), but to allow transfering the older sample libraries to students and leave VSL the support for it (new operating systems, new verions of samplers would require regulary updates of the performance tool for example) does not make any sense and would be highly unfair to VSL.

i can hear already requests like *we have lost/scratched DVD2 from opus - how can we get the samples back* and similar issues ... no, thank you ...

christian

[clarkcontrol]

VSL started a revolution when it adopted the VIP upgrade program. I believe it to be very fair in regards to protecting the consumer and the company.

While I have certain issues with the VI player in regards to the lack of manipulating/programing on the sample level I feel that my investment will be more secure and my money will go farther in the long run.

To recycle content in this manner will dilute my investment. If VSL decides to implement a student discount it should do so based on its own merit and not because we have extra media going unused in our studios.

A different example:

AS A COMPROMISE, VSL could implement as a part of its upgrade plan an extra buyback option where for an extra 'bump' in the discount we could send back to VSL our old disks. VSL could then have a "refurbished" line of products where they could sell these returned disks for an additional discount to new consumers with smaller budgets or older systems, giving them the opportunity to become members at a lower price point.


UNFORTUNATELY, this still leaves us with that problem "I've got a scratched DVD and need a replacement" so even this would be illogical.

VSL shouldn't change its policy

Clark

[cm]

thanks clark, this is a point i almost forgot ...

so here would be the consequent handling: request from VSL a license transfer including a declaration to whom you'd like to donate which product, pay the difference to all VIP prices and discounts you have received for the registered product you want to donate, hand over the product with all related material, VSL transfers the license after confirmation.

note: i'm not saying this could even happen, it is just an example to illustrate the impact of such a demand.
christian

[stevesong]

Christian:

I do understand the distinction you make regarding owning samples and having licensed usage of a sample library. What I wrote was, clearly, inexact on this point. My aim was to make clear to the writers whose views I disagreed with that, although I'd paid the normal price for this license, I would not feel that its value was lessened if licenses were made available to educational institutions at lower prices. My argument was with those who claim that the value of the Vienna Instruments Library would somehow be less if it were available to educational institutions for less than they paid - - not with VSL. Perhaps what I said was a little edged because I, frankly, have little sympathy with those who presume to judge a thing's merit on the basis of its high price tag or because it has, in their minds, an ambience of "exclusivity."

For me, the Vienna Library is a powerful musical instrument whose value stems from its musical excellence - - not the price of its license. At the same time, I think I have some appreciation of the immense amount of initiative, effort, intellect and imagination that went in to making it what it is and I think the folks at VSL have every right to expect to be well rewarded for creating such a product. It is also very apparent to me that the making VSL libraries was driven by valuing musical excellence - - there are, after all, less arduous ways of making money.

Please don't take anything I've said as a criticism of VSL. I understand that allowing an individual to donate licenses to an educational institution is not allowed by your current policy. What I and some other writers in this thread wanted to suggest is that there might be some constructive alternatives to the current policy that VSL might consider at some point.

You bring up some points I had not thought of regarding support and updates. But, playing devil’s advocate, I’d ask what if continued support and updates were not part of the deal? As I mentioned earlier in the thread, one of my former students recently was able to purchase Logic from his school's bookstore (again, to be exact, he only bought a license) at a price significantly less than Apple's published "educational" price (through an agreement between his school and Apple). BUT, buying it at this price specifically excluded his eligibility for any future upgrades. Similarly if I decided to donate my piano to an educational institution, neither I - - nor Steinway - - would be obligated to provide tunings, replacement parts, etc. Many people continue to use older versions of software for long periods of time forgoing continued support and upgrades. I, for example, paid for the last two updates to Finale (2006 and 2007) but these proved so buggy, that I continue to use Finale 2005 and plan to keep my G5 as long as there is no, more current, version of Finale that demonstrates the reliability I need. Since you said, that you didn’t "want to know on how many servers of various universities or P2P networks we would find VSL files already," I wanted to suggest a way of making this illegitimate use less likely - by creating a legitimate path for donations of semi-obsolete software and charging a reasonable fee for transferring the license – with either a specific exclusion of continued support and upgrades or a continuing yearly subscription fee if support and upgrades were to be made available. That would, at least in theory, also be a way of enlarging the legitimate user base and promoting future sales. Perhaps I am wrong about all this, perhaps it wouldn’t work, but it is a suggestion -- not a "demand" -- based on good will towards VSL and an appreciation of your work and your products. I apologize if I, inadvertently, gave any other impression.

[cm]

stephen, many of your considerations are valid and maybe VSL would open one or another route in the future - i am no judge of this.

just a comment to continuing support: we had already to stop support for windows 98 and it looks we will have to do the same for OS 9 in the near future. nevertheless development and support continued related to apple's move to intel processors (refering to the performance tool now).

but the day will come where VSL possibly has not even an option to continue support, because an update of an operating system or an application simply does not allow it. what should one do then in such a situation if someone might have a donated license but no possibility to use it?

if VSL would start to allow *recycling* of older products this might lead to a very uncomfortable situation in the future - better to think very accurate about possible subsequent consequences now.

christian

ps: personally i hate to realize a certain amount of DVDs is going into *garbage*, but sometimes one had to choose the least worse.