.

Why DONATE to TOP educational institutions? I mean, they can afford to PAY for them, right? Most of them charge top tuitions in the first place.

Some distinctions must be made. I don't think freshman students have access to the same instruments Senior students do, right? Does a typical beginner have access to that same glorious Grand Italian piano as a TRULLY gifted and tallented sutdent? I don't think so... It wouldn't make sense.

There are more ad hoc libraries for student use. They just need to become familiar with the technology, learn the basics, and THEN, when they become professionals, they can move up to more top-of-the-line stuff.

I'm not sure if VSL is aware of their MONUMENTAL mistake to have issued the Pro Edition libraries without any anti-piracy protection. If they came here to Mexico and see that basically almost NOBODY will ever buy anything from them (because they already got it for free), they will have a heart attack. Every pseudo-musician, every kid in their bedroom studios have the Pro edition. Pirated, that is. It doesn't take a genious to know this is the same situation in EVERY 3rd world country. Same in Colombia, Venezuela, etc. I've also heard the situation regarding pirated VSL (and every software in general) is the same throughout Eastern Europe. Even top professionals here in Mexico have offered me some stuff. They do it with the same loosenes as if they were offering you a cigarrete.
Is it not TOO much to ask VSL to, in top of this, "donate" a little more?????

I think it is an insult.

A student doesn't "need" the best commercial stuff money can buy. They can, as mentioned earlier, start with other good products, and then move up. Give them something to aim for. They will pirate them later anyway... I studied in the US in a top University, and pirated software from the "learning center" happened ALL the time. It was run by senior students, and they even charged some money to give you a password to steal ANYTHING they had in there...

This "I have the right to have the best for free" set of mind is something like the plague. Every kid now thinks he/she can have in his iPod every song/composition ever created because they can... [[:|]]
I mean, it is out there. They just need to reach out and grab everything they can. The are not even aware of IP issues.

As I wrote earlier, distinctions MUST be made. A luxory is a luxory.
VSL is not targeting amateurs and is not targeting students, thus the price of their stuff. People get what they pay for, thus the different pricing among different products. There is stuff out there that fits EVERYBODYs financial situation. It is not that they can never get an orchestral library. People will get the one that they can afford, right?
I want to move into a bigger appartment. Can I go to the real state guy and ask him that I am entitled to that bigger apartment, eventhough i can't afford it?

And please do not say that tallented students would be stifled form their learning if they don't have this stuff. TRULLY tallented students need nothing more than a good pencil and some score paper. Or little more than a decent computer and a decent sampling library. They will shine with the amazing quality of their compositions anyway, right? They will get nothing but As.

I REALLY don't want to find out that I pay TOP dollars for something, and then there are people who get it for free. It is just not fair. It doesn't make sense, and it is not how the market works.

It is just that my blood boils everytime I see a colleague here bragging about his new pirated VSL. They think it is so cool to beat the system. They laugh at me for "wasting" my money on software and libraries. They trully believe I am an idiot.
"Hey, Fernando. You must be rich. I just got the whole library for the price of 10 blank DVDs, jajaja. You must be an idiot. My dealer even threw in there a couple of Horizon stuff. You are so weird".

These people just don't get they are stealing. They must go to prison.

Sorry about the rant. I just HATE free raiders. They will ruin developers, they will ruin creative drive of the makers, and they will make it so hard for companies to keep developing great stuff.

Please notice this was not a personal attack on anyone in particular. I am just venitng out.

Cheers.

It might be a good idea at this point to examine the facts dispassionately from a business viewpoint.

Miguélez describes a problem that has existed in the software industry as whole for a very long time. The facts, long recognized by most software companies appear to be:

1. Software piracy exists on a fairly large scale.

2. It is unlikely that there ever will be a copy protection scheme so bulletproof that it will not be cracked by some bright person somewhere.

3. When a software copy protection scheme is “cracked” it is likely that the person or persons involved will surreptiously publish a “how to” guide for cracking that copy protection scheme – and this will make pirated versions of the software more common - - while necessitating improvements in copy protection.

The available remedies are:

1. Go after perpetrators.

2. Improve copy protection – knowing, however, that it will eventually be broken.

3. Create conditions, which make piracy less likely.

The problem with the first option is that it would involve expensive investigation and litigation. It could also conceivably have the effect of turning colleagues, friends, teachers, school administrators into a kind of software police force – a role that most people would reject and which would likely have a strongly negative impact on a company’s reputation.

Historically, most software companies have adopted the second and third options - - they have both increased the effectiveness of copy protection and attempted to create conditions in which piracy is less likely.

In trying to reduce piracy, a company needs to identify the demographics of piracy. It is evident that, in developed countries, the perpetrators are likely to be young people, often students. In the developing world, the demographics may include educated people in general. In some countries, a lax attitude on the part of government towards intellectual property rights is prevalent making any control of piracy more difficult.

Having identified the fact that, at least in developed countries, the largest group of perpetrators are young people and students - - a great majority of whom do not engage in theft in ways other than using pirated software, music or video - - companies have developed a strategy of offering full versions of their software to educational institutions and/or students in “educational,” “student” or “student/teacher” editions (the last in recognition of the fact that in some countries, such as the United States, teachers often have quite moderate salaries.) whose price is a fraction of the course of the normal retail price. (E.g. The normal retail price AutoDesk’s AutoCAD is $4,695, while the “student edition” of the same is $159.95 - - while upgrading the “student edition” to the “commercial edition” is $3599.95; the normal retail price (pre-order) for Adobe’s CS 3 Master Collection is $2474, the “student edition” of the same is $989.95. Not all companies offer such large discounts. For example the current price of the EWQLSO Platinum bundle is $2995 while the educational version of the same is $2790).

Among companies marketing educational, student and student teacher editions of their software are Microsoft, Apple, Adobe (Acrobat Professional, CS2, CS3, CS 3 Master Collection, Studio Premium, Video Bundle, Web Bundle, etc.), Native Instruments (multiple products) AutoDesk (AutoCAD, Maya), Nemtschek (VectorWorks Architect) EastWest (EWQLSO), Steinberg, MakeMusic (Finale), Avid (Sibelius, Pro Tools LE, Media Composer) Cakewalk (Sonar) Wolfram (Mathematica).

These companies would not engage in this practice if they did not see it as constructive in a business sense. The consequences of this practice are:

1. It reduces piracy and, although the selling price may be a fraction of the normal price, it produces revenue that might, otherwise, be lost to piracy.
2. It enlarges the legitimate user base.
3. It develops a future market for full priced versions of the company’s software by helping train a large number of people in the use of their software.
4. It reduces the sense of an adversarial relation between companies and customers.
5. By reducing the number of people impelled towards cracking copy protection - - makes it likely (from a statistical point of view) that revamps of copy protection schemes will be less frequently necessary.

Most, but not all, of the companies cited are fairly large. Whether this kind of policy discussed above makes sense for small or very small companies, I don’t know. There are a number of questions involved. Among them is how large the potential customer base actually is. This means having a rough idea of how many pirated as well as legitimately licensed copies are in use - - the assumption being that people would not pirate software that was not uniquely useful to them. (It is, for example, doubtful that VSL libraries have been pirated by non-musicians.) If it is determined that the potential customer base is much larger than the legitimately licensed customer base, that opens the question of what the best price is (and what kind of price structure - - e.g. "student" vs. "commercial" licensing - - might reduce piracy) – obviously a complex calculation.

Some questions might be:

1. At what price point would a significant share of those using pirated versions of the software be attracted into purchasing licenses?
2. Would that price point make up for revenues lost by having lower price - -would it decrease or increase revenues?

The reasoning for allowing donated license transfers of software to educational institutions is approximately the same as that which underlies issuance of “student editions” of software. One objection is that it would necessitate continued support of obsolete software. It could be argued that this would be avoided by making the license transfer conditional upon making the transferred license ineligible for continuing support or upgrades. It might also be argued that, by allowing such donations and charging a fee for the license transfer, a company could create an additional source of revenue.

I hope that it is clear that what I’ve attempted is an objective account outlining the strategies historically employed by many companies to deal with the issue of software piracy. I am explicitly not trying to assign blame to anyone for anything. I am fully aware that this is an incomplete account, but hope that it provides some basis for constructive discussion.

stephen, among the companies you name are many which are pure software vendors - VSL is providing a license to use content. also i don't know any case where one of those companies would allow to give away (donate or sell) a product which has been used for an upgrade - the final license is only valid if the underlying product's license is still active (eg. office 98 with upgrade to office 10 - you cannot give away your office98 license without loosing the office 10 license).
in my eyes it is that simple, christian

Christian:

Clearly this is simply a business decision. You and your colleagues are the only ones who can determine what is in the best interests of VSL. If I have suggested alternatives to current policies, it is not meant as a criticism, but as part of a constructive dialogue. Whether any of my suggestions make sense or not, I can't say, but I can say that my aim has been to suggest possible ways for VSL to increase its legitmate user base and revenue. I mentioned the policies some software companies have adopted not to compare them to VSL's policies but, to give an objective reference point regarding strategies that have been developed to combat the problem that everyone in the software industry (whether their products are "pure" software or are content based) faces: piracy. My hope was to avoid upsetting anyone, on the contrary, my aim was to make the discussion as objective as I could.

For the record, I continue to use the one Horizon library for which I purchased a license - the solo string library - before I purchased licenses for the VI libraries - - including the VI Solo String Library. I continue to find this Horizon series library useful - - so, I have absolutely no personal stake in any argument about donations. However as well as being a composer I am a teacher - - so I may have both the insights and prejudices of someone who has trained many young composers and worked, for many years, in higher education.

I remain immensely grateful to VSL for providing musicians (including me) with an extraordinarily powerful musical instrument. I hope you will see that what I have written is founded on good will and appreciation of VSL's work. (I also haven't forgotten that you, personally, helped me out on a weekend when I had difficulty downloading licenses for the VI libraries - - thanks again for that.)

Stephen

Stevesong:
I have to admit you have interesting points.

But one thing that bothers me is this:

@Another User said:

Having identified the fact that, at least in developed countries, the largest group of perpetrators are young people and students - - a great majority of whom do not engage in theft in ways other than using pirated software, music or video - - companies have developed a strategy of offering full versions of their software to educational institutions and/or students in “educational,” “student” or “student/teacher” editions (the last in recognition of the fact that in some countries, such as the United States, teachers often have quite moderate salaries.) whose price is a fraction of the course of the normal retail price. (E.g. The normal retail price AutoDesk’s AutoCAD is $4,695, while the “student edition” of the same is $159.95 - - while upgrading the “student edition” to the “commercial edition” is $3599.95; the normal retail price (pre-order) for Adobe’s CS 3 Master Collection is $2474, the “student edition” of the same is $989.95. Not all companies offer such large discounts. For example the current price of the EWQLSO Platinum bundle is $2995 while the educational version of the same is $2790).

This sends the wrong message. The ONLY way to defeat piracy is by a direct and strong attack, not by avoiding it. I don´t see why schools or manufacturers would make a bad reputation for ¨being anti'piracy¨cops.

Any school-university will not tolerate certain conducts, such as sexual harassment, cheating on tests, bribing, etc. Why can they not incorporate a strong anty-piracy policy as well? I mean, students must learn why piracy is wrong, and how it affects R&D, and the whole industry in general.

Sorry for this extreme example, but wouldn´t offering software or libraries to students with a special disccount in order to avoid piracy be like a father giving drugs to his kids in order to avoid the kid to go and get them on the street by himself?
I don't think that's the solution.

I am saying this with all due respect to you. It's obvious your intentions are good.
It's just too bad students tend to be smart-asses sometimes.

@cm said:

dbudde, as you already mention: the license is not transferable - not with and not without money flowing.
also you have most probably *used* the licenses for receiving discounts on extended libraries of vienna instruments collections ....

if you upgrade from cubase 3 to 4 or logic 6 to 7 this clearly means you cannot *sell* the version you have upgraded from - why should it be different for VSL products?
christian

Christian this makes absolute sense to me. It would be nothing short of dishonest and stealing to sell an old version when you got the discount price for upgrading.

Miklos.

@Miguélez said:

Sorry for this extreme example, but wouldn´t offering software or libraries to students with a special disccount in order to avoid piracy be like a father giving drugs to his kids in order to avoid the kid to go and get them on the street by himself?
I don't think that's the solution.

I am not sure that software products which are used productively are exactly analogous to illegal drugs which have an inherently socially destructive effect.

In any case, I merely cited the practices of a number of large software companies. Evidently working on the assumption that everyone using pirated software is a potential future customer, these companies seem to have determined that it is not in their interest to attempt to populate correctional institutions with potential future customers. They have, instead, enhanced copy protection (making piracy more difficult) and, taking into account the demographics of piracy, made it easier for students to become legitimate users by offering lower priced "student editions" of their software (making piracy less tempting.)

Rather than becoming members of a "software police force," teachers can - and do - make ethical arguments that will often persuade students to purchase licenses for the software they use. I know that I have been able to do this very effectively with my students. However, I must say that availability of "student editions" of software at affordable prices, very likely enhanced my success. The result is that, instead of being members of an furtive community of outlaws, these students have become members of the open community of legitimate users - - which, among other things, allows them to make valuable creative contributions in dialogue with the companies whose software they work with. And, they have become more aware of their obligations to others.

I explicitly make no recommendation regarding what the best policies would be for VSL. As I said earlier in this thread, only the folks at VSL can determine what is in the best interest of their company. I am sure they hope to reduce piracy and increase the size of the user base, but only they can determine what is the best way to do that. I've offered alternatives in a spirit of good will and constructive discussion - as a friend offers his or her input to a friend. My intent has been to provoke thought and discussion, not to judge or prescribe. I certainly don't think I have the answers.

Regarding dbudde's original question and cm's answer, everybody in the USA is governed by federal law outlined in section 109 of the Copyright Act. You can read some understandable background at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Simply put, just because VSL says their EULA removes your first sale rights, doesn't make it so. The problem is that the issue hasn't been resolved by the Supreme Court, and there have been conflicting judgements in the various Circuit and Appeals Courts where this has been argued. So, if you want to sell your old copies, you can because existing federal law voids the EULA provision that appears to forbid you from doing so. However, since VSL doesn't care about federal law in the USA, they would remove authorizations if they discovered the software had been sold. Or they might file a lawsuit for damages. They would make the whole experience as painful and expensive for you as possible. So for a few hundred bucks of software, it isn't worth the battle. Someone that has the time and money will eventually get this settled. But that probably isn't any of us.

Eventually this will reach the Supreme Court and get resolved. EULAs are getting more restrictive and even pre-emptive, and the most greedy companies will provoke action. For example, the agreement for Vista allows Microsoft to install their "malware" software with the OS. If it finds any software on your PC it doesn't like, it can remove it without asking.

For now, keep your old files. When the issue is resolved, its likely the courts will find that you purchased the software; that it was a sale under the terms of the UCC and not a lease or a right to use. You'll then get back your first sale rights.

Interesting, Peregrine--

Except for one thing: we purchased the license under specific terms of agreement. My questions are only rhetorical, but:

Would such a SC judgement be retroactive or from the date of judgement? Would we not be bound to the terms of the license agreement, regardless of what the laws of one or more countries may state?

As mentioned, I'm not challenging your argument but just wondering... even an unwritten handshake agreement is legally binding if those terms can be verified. Would it not be outside the "spirit" of the law to, in effect, break a promise?

@Peregrine said:

Regarding dbudde's original question and cm's answer, everybody in the USA is governed by federal law outlined in section 109 of the Copyright Act. You can read some understandable background at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Simply put, just because VSL says their EULA removes your first sale rights, doesn't make it so. [...]

You're mixing up _licensing_ and _buying_. In principle, you could sell the DVD's your library was delivered on, but not the right to use the content on it.

peregrine, it is very clear what is covered by section 109 and what not.
if [insert major film studio here] is producing video-DVDs and you purchase one you have the right to _view_ it (alone or in a private surrounding with friends).
although in case of a video you are allowed to sell it (the DVD, not the film) - without keeping a copy of it of course - you are not allowed to eg. rent it, use it for public performance or use the material contained on the DVD for re-publishing in any other media (eg. offer it at youTube or MySpace), broadcast it, ect.
this is the deal and it should be according to all known laws worldwide.

in case of VSL you can create anything you like using the licensed samples and do whatever you want with the derived work (according to the license agreement) - what you cannot do is re-license the library means you as licensee cannot decide who else will receive a license to use the library.

anyway this question is still different from donating a product which is the basic prerequisite for an upgrade in which case one would loose the condition for eligibility to upgrade (= receive discounts).

christian

btw: this thread is close to be closed ...

I get this all the time in my work. People just don't want to pay for the product because they don't want to pay. Sometimes I just look at people and say, well, you are free to go elsewhere. They pay. Some people want something for nothing. All this discussion, and it's really simple.

VSL makes product.
Users want to use said product.
VSL sells them license to use it.
They want to upgrade to new product.
VSL allows this at discounted price (VSL Pro -> VI path)
Users want to get their money back on the first version.... ah, I don't think so.

I'm with cm and VSL on this one.

To change the tone.... Once again, Thanks to the VSL team for the libraries! They're awesome, most of us could not live without them!! We really appreciate all the hard work.

Best Regards,
Miklos.

Please close this thread. It has gone way off topic. Never was the discussion intended to be about selling anything to a third party.

I second that notion...

@dbudde said:

Please close this thread. It has gone way off topic. Never was the discussion intended to be about selling anything to a third party.

dbudde:

I think you're right that this thread went off course recently - - the original question had absolutely nothing to do with re-selling licenses. However, I also think that you provoked a lot of constructive discussion - - so you don't need to feel badly that the discussion took an unforeseen turn. Obviously, we are not all going to agree about everything, but having a discussion elicits many observations about the issues - - which can hopefully be useful to everyone. So I don't think that it's necessary to close this thread - - even if I might disagree strongly with some of the ideas presented.

Again, I'm grateful to the folks at VSL for making a fantastic product - - and also for allowing far-ranging discussions on its forum. Christian, in particular, has been incredibly patient as he, very articulately, presented VSL's viewpoint. Thanks for doing that.

I don't feel badly. I just don't think this particular discussion is productive. If you want to pursue it, start another thread.

Well, I want to pursue it. [:)] A sample library is a recorded work. You can't sell it because it doesn't belong to you. The product is the license.

It took me a while to get to this point, but it is the reality.

Back to the original point: I find being able to get at the scale runs from the original version very useful, because you can time-stretch them easily.

It has to do with requirements for a valid contract. One of those requirements is that the terms and performance of the contract (in this case, the EULA) must be legal actions. If a contract contains a requirement that is illegal under federal law, or within any state jurisdiction, that requirement is void. It wouldn't matter when you agreed to the clickwrap.

If you were to research this issue, you would quickly find numerous U.S. cases that illustrate just how divided it is. Many courts have upheld section 109 first sale rights. But there are a few that have been decided in favor of the copyright holder. I think its safe to assume this won't be resolved for at least several years.

Sorry - I just went back through this thread and am finding it seems to be really irritating some people for some reason. The original question was about selling or donating VSL products. The original answer was that you can't do that because the EULA says you didn't buy a product; you just purchased a license to use it. What I'm adding here is that several US Appeals Courts have decided you are in fact buying a product, and that a copyright holder can't prevent you from reselling (or donating) your software by EULA limitations of your first sale rights. OK? You all have a nice day.

Many valid ways to say the same thing - all of it common sense... Anyone who tries to explain it as another way, include donating things... is only sorry to say, trying to avoid paying for something. It's easy to give away other people's property but not your own... [:)]

Miklos