Sounds like the collection was intended to add on to the other volumes rather than to be a fully blown standalone collection in its own right. But I get the feeling that what AS offers is still needed.

As for artics, there seems to be a considerable amount to work with here-- and who's to say that the collection won't be amended? [:P]

Also, it's easy to confuse actual "articulations" with what VSL describes as "articulation groups".. I counted 8 artic groups, but actual articulations-- well, check it out:

01 SHORT + LONG NOTES

Staccato, tight and loose
Détaché
Sustained with normal, strong and progressive vibrato
Sustained, tuning in after the attack
Sustained, on the G string
Pizzicato
Tremolo, sustained

02 DYNAMICS
Medium crescendo and diminuendo, 2, 3, and 4 sec.
Crescendo-diminuendo, 2, 4, and 6 sec.
Sforzato/sforzatissimo

10 PERF INTERVAL
Legato/portamento:
Normal, with 4 velocity sustains, progressive and strong vibrato, sforzato, detuned attack, and on the G string

11 PERF INTERVAL FAST
Legato
Spiccato
Harsh
Marcato

12 PERF TRILL
Trills, minor 2nd to major 3rd

13 PERF REPETITION
Legato
Portato
Spiccato
Harsh

14 FAST REPETITION
Staccato, 150 to 190 BPM

15 EFFECTS
Grace runs, chromatic, minor 3rd, up and down
Clusters, wide range and tight
Random pizzicato

Jerome,


What's the problem here?

Great...that's exactly what I expected.........


The sordinos, in the main library were never an issue (they're great) And now the celli, and basses, violas and violins sustains get fixed.

I can't wait [;)]

thanx vienna

SvK

@Jerome said:

Only 7 articulations for the Full Strings samples... Very disappointing, to say the least [:(]

Jerome

What if Beethoven had said: "How disappointing having to write for horns limited to the harmonic series only!"

Good thing he didn't wait for the invention of the piston horn to write masterpieces.....

They did it again? What are you talking about?

The greatest advance in musical expression in modern times? The best sample library in existence? I would subscribe to that.

But your crudely ironic tone implies otherwise.

Yeah, they did it again. The appassionata violins - which I have been using on everything I do now - are now the main samples to be used for violins. Besides the other VSL violins.

So, yes, they did it again.

Don't post stupid as well as ignorant things here, or you will get an armed response. At least from me. Of course some of the other people will be more polite, but I am not polite under any circumstances with arrogant fools. Quiet fools, yes. Arrogant ones, no.

William, are you ok?

"crudely ironic tone", "don't post stupid as well as ignorant things here", "arrogant fools"...

Don't you think you're over-reacting a little?

Jerome

@JWL said:

Sounds like the collection was intended to add on to the other volumes rather than to be a fully blown standalone collection in its own right. But I get the feeling that what AS offers is still needed.

As for artics, there seems to be a considerable amount to work with here-- and who's to say that the collection won't be amended? [:P]

Also, it's easy to confuse actual "articulations" with what VSL describes as "articulation groups".. I counted 8 artic groups, but actual articulations-- well, check it out:

Hi Charles,

I think the AS are going to be great, but they have the same problem as the previous Strings I & II collections: most of the articulations you are mentionning are only available on a per section basis, not for the Full Strings.

I remember posting about that 6 months ago on this forum, but it seems it wasn't deemed important enough by the VSL guys.

Too bad... many (if not most) composers in the film industry (and maybe in other domains as well, but I don't know about that) write/sketch with full section strings patches. I guess they'll have to go get the other articulations (detaché, spiccato, marcato, legato, etc) somewhere else.

Jerome, i'm not sure i understand what you want.
In the list JWL kindly posted are the articulations you state are missing.

Am i missing something here?
Are you talking about one patch per articulation as total ensemble strings?
(V/Va/Vc/Kb all together.)


Alex.

Are there any glissandos ?
I don't seem to see any.

I don't see how I could make myself clearer... They have 5 (not even 7, actually) artilculations for the Full String patches (Staccato, sustained, sforzato/sforzatissimo, tremolo sustained, and pizzicato). That's it.

If you want more articulations, you *have* to use the various sections (violins OR violas OR cellos OR basses).

Also, please guys, stop taking a criticism toward a VSL product as a personal attack. At our studio, we have been using the Symphonic Cube for 6 months, and I was (and still am) a big supporter of what VSL is doing. It's not because I am saddened by *one* thing that I hate everything else. Thank you.

I mean, I only said I was "disapointed", not that the VI AS were a piece of crap!!!

Jerome

The main feature of the appassionatas are the interval performances, (normal, fast, trills) which cannot be merged into "all strings patches", also they are monophonic so it would not make much sense.

The focus is defenitely not so much on standard single note patches.
All articulations of the basses, which are the smallest section articulationwise, are used for the available "all strings patches".

best
Herb

As I understand it VSL does not focus on one single aspect, if you limit yourself to that only then I'm guessing you are not taking advantage of the full lib available. I'd rather have a balanced lib which I can use for almost any kind of situation than everything including memory focused on something very particular.

Well, herb beat me to it, just took the words out of my mouth... [[;)]]

@Guy said:

As I understand it VSL does not focus on one single aspect, if you limit yourself to that only then I'm guessing you are not taking advantage of the full lib available. I'd rather have a balanced lib which I can use for almost any kind of situation than everything including memory focused on something very particular.

One doesn't necessarily negate the other. You can have all the "section" strings patches (violins I, violins II, violas, cellos, basses) and "full string" patches as well. Everybody wins!

I find it interesting that Herb says that what VSL do for sections can't be done on a "full strings" patch. What about snap pizz, col legno, harmonics (in the Strings I & II collections)? It would *useful* to be able to use these "articulations" (or whatever the way you want to call them) on the whole string orchestra range, without having to pull up 5 strings tracks to play a full col legno chord.

Many libraries have been providing these articulations in Full Strings patches for years. I just don't see why VSL couldn't do the same; it's a shame especially considering the quality of their products...

As such, I think (and I am not the only one...) that it would have been great to have more Appasionatas articulations available for Full Strings, even if the basses are not included (or they could just play a standard articulation): détaché, normal/strong/progressive vibrato, crescendo/diminuendo.... It would save a lot of pain, time and frustration.

Regarding the monophonic patches, I don't see why they couldn't be applied to a Full String sections... What's the difference? Let's say you want legato. From C2-to F#2, you're using the violas patches. From G2-F#3, violas and violins. And then from G3 and up, just the violin patches. Finally, when you're "crossing" over two sections (say, you're playing a F2 to A2 interval), the legato is only applied for the violas; the strings would just play the regular A2 note (as if you were "starting" to play on A2).

That doesn't seem impossible to me... You "just" need to program it to change "section" at the right note. The big job would be on mixing/balancing these correctly, so that the "jump" between two sections wouldn't be obvious. It might not be "easy", but the VSL guys have been impressing us for a long time now and I don't think this is out of their reach!

You guys have made wonders with your "interval" patches, by developing something nobody thought could be made easy, and you just can't find a way to make a good all-around Full String legato patch? That's really puzzling to me...

Jerome

Performing legato but changing instruments seems very artificial to me.

@herb said:

Performing legato but changing instruments seems very artificial to me.

Well, that sums it up [:)]

J.

I should let this inane thread die its well-deserved death and roll back into the dim mists of the forum-database past, however ---

"That sums it up" Sums what up? I don't understand that. Nothing has been summed up whatsoever.

"You guys have made wonders with your "interval" patches, by developing something nobody thought could be made easy, and you just can't find a way to make a good all-around Full String legato patch? That's really puzzling to me... "

You must find a lot of things puzzling. This may be the most absurd sampling idea I've ever heard. What are you talking about, legato from bass to viola? Or maybe cello to violin?

The all-strings patches are a simple expedient mainly for doing realistic pads with a few other articulations thrown in. If you want more detailed sound, like legatos or all the articulations, you obviously use individual instruments, not generic all-string ensembles.

Also, it is obvious that the Appassionata strings are not designed to replace all the other strings with a separate self-contained library duplicating all the other articulations. They are meant to add more expression to what already exists.

So the whole point of this thread is based upon a misconception. Which is fine - I don't blame someone for that. But what I don't like is how the misconception is combined with a smartass tone, and a demanding, almost infantile attitude. People are given so much today, but they always want MORE, MORE, MORE. It is, frankly, disgusting, One hundred years ago people had NOTHING compared to this. And they were striving to use it. Instead of sitting surrounded by riches and yelling for more.

@William said:

Also, it is obvious that the Appassionata strings are not designed to replace all the other strings with a separate self-contained library duplicating all the other articulations. They are meant to add more expression to what already exists.

I do agree with this. The one issue that came up regarding AS was a question by svonk... those who have Orch Strings 1 on one drive and Orch Strings 2 on another are encountering the same issues as they did with Chamber and Solo Strings--- except the App. Str. set is much more integral to Orch 1 and 2 and is still on one license. It throws a slight wrench in the works depending on how you've already organized your HDDs.

I am going to have to rethink where my files are located and how to reorganize all the strings so that it makes sense in terms of drive load.

Wiliam, if I'm pissing you off so bad, please ignore my posts, as I will do for yours from now on. They're so aggressive, it's unbelievable. I did nothing to deserve that kind of smack talk, so you'll excuse me if I don't read your posts anymore.

Hey Guys:

At the end of the day, it's not the end of the world. As the VSL Cube continues to expand into a VSL Hexahedron of sorts, there will no doubt be more developments and improvements with more articulations to come.

As I watch the news, I am reminded that the enemy is elsewhere and not here-- if musicians part ways over a simple difference of entitled opinion, then all hope is lost.

William and Jerome:

I have immense respect for both of you... and no, my post here is not a call to hold hands and to sing "Kum bah ya"! [:P]

When people agree, it serves as confirmation that one's instincts are serving them well. When people express a difference of opinion, I learn the most from reading what these divergent points of view are. This whole world of VIs necessitates an extremely open mind on my part. I value the differences of approaches and needs members have expressed here over the years. It helps confirm what can be done now and provides insights into what might be done in the future.

With App. Strings in general, there was a day when there was no such thing-- VSL delivered generously by offering VIPs the violins for free and now the extended license for free. It will get better, but it *is* already good. At least that's my opinion.

So, my personal request is that we keep the discussions going as constructively as possible. Who knows? Something just may come out of this that doesn't keep the VSL team from taking threads like this seriously.

Peacefully and respectfully submitted,
JWL

Thanks Charles for the peaceful comment [:)]

As many here, you know I am absolutely in awe of what the VSL guys have done. I think the VI setup at our studio proves that we're taking this thing seriously... I really do not think my original post was aggressive; I was merely expressing a disapointement.

It really bothers me when "fanboys" are yelling at you for expressing a *slight* criticism. If the only thing we are here to talk about is how great VSL is, then this place would be very boring, because we *all* know VSL products are great!

But great doesn't necessarily mean perfect. Which is why I think it can be useful to give one's opinion about a product. That doesn't mean the VSL guys have to listen to that opinion - but at least they are aware of it.

When I said "that sums it up," it meant exactly what it meant. Herb's opinion explains why they don't spend time on full string patches. Being the guy behind VSL, Herb's opinion define what VSL develops.

It's not the end of the world - there are many other "full strings" libraries out there. I just find it too bad that because of this, we can't rely exclusively on VSL for our orchestra samples needs. I would love to ditch everything else and only use VI in our studio. That's why I am disapointed. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jerome