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  4. Buying the Farm---

  • Buying the Farm---

    J
    J
    http://www.rainrecording.com/products/element64

    Is the Rain Element 64T DAW PC all hype or worth consideration as a Cube farm?

    A curious Mac user wants to know....

    (DG, I have a feeling I know what you'll say.. [:D] )
  • J
    J
    If you want to use if for VSL, it doesn't give you anything more than a DIY PC built in a rack case. Since VI is a 32-bit application, you will have to run Windows XP and you'll still be only be able to go up to about 2.5 GB of memory.

    Jerome
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    Hey Jerome and others,
    Before I pull the trigger on a mini mac or DIY PC (which I already have 3) I wanted to get some more info.
    My main concern is having issues with the Mac. I'm a long time mac user and my main daw is a G5 2.0 with DP running under DAE - which already gives me enough problems to deal with when it comes to VI plugins.
    I also have a Macbook Pro which I'm going to press into service as a farm. I currently have 3 PC P4 3.0 that I've been using with giga. I'm going to either add a mac mini or another PC duo core. The price break is close if you get MOL for the mac - about $300 for me, but otherwise if I go with Apple Network the Mac mini comes in about $500 cheaper. The down side on the mac is it's only 2gig and I'm not sure how well it will run VI (read as: no pops and cracks) The downside on the PC is that I will have spend more money, build it and deal with all the driver nonsense and finally it's a PC.
    The only try out of VI that I had was at a certain music store (which will remain unnamed) and their PC loaded with VI was an absolute mess. The audio crackled so bad that I couldn't even really try anything out on it. Had I not known better, I would have walked out and given VI a thumbs down, but I know that those machines get trashed with everyone poking around them.

    So, I have to rely on people in this fourm that have VI on both platforms to give me an idea as to what to expect.

    For the Mac guys. Are the mac mini's really holding up fine? I was planing on using the light out to a convertor box Toslink to AES. I'm probably going to use the built in midi network (by the way, I got twice the lag when I tried MOL vrs the apple network) I could go with DP, Ploque, Live for hosts etc. I'm not going to deal with internal drive issues, I'm going to use a Firewire 911 oxford 400 drive for the samples. What is the most I can expect in terms of instances, voices etc.

    For the PC guys out there - what can I expect with a new duo core, 3 gigs of ram, SATA drive?
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    @Another User said:


    For the Mac guys. Are the mac mini's really holding up fine? I was planing on using the light out to a convertor box Toslink to AES. I'm probably going to use the built in midi network (by the way, I got twice the lag when I tried MOL vrs the apple network) I could go with DP, Ploque, Live for hosts etc. I'm not going to deal with internal drive issues, I'm going to use a Firewire 911 oxford 400 drive for the samples. What is the most I can expect in terms of instances, voices etc.


    I can't help you on the PC side, but in case you haven't read this thread:

    http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?t=9302

    8 Mac Minis as VI farms! The idea is cool, but you will see quickly that the opinions vary and even dare fly in the face of success reports of the owner of the octet of M&Ms.
  • J
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    @Jerome said:

    If you want to use if for VSL, it doesn't give you anything more than a DIY PC built in a rack case. Since VI is a 32-bit application, you will have to run Windows XP and you'll still be only be able to go up to about 2.5 GB of memory.

    Jerome


    Would you say that VI will eventually be released as a 64b app?
  • J
    J
    I wish [:)]

    But, as far as I could tell when I met with Paul, it didn't seem to be on their road map for next week. Maybe next month?

    Just kidding.

    For what I know (but I might be wrong), rewriting a 32-bit into 64-bit is like re-writing the whole thing. In terms of code and development time, there is no comparison with going from, say, PowerPC to Intel.

    Plus, you need to remember that, besides the VI app, the *host* AND the *OS* will have to be 64 bit to go over our dreadful 2.5GB barrier.

    But 64-bit is definitely the future in terms of memory management. And since we've been pretty far now in terms of raw power and storage space, memory is, IMHO, the next big thing.

    Jerome
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
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    @Tripit said:

    at a certain music store (which will remain unnamed) and their PC loaded with VI was an absolute mess. The audio crackled so bad that I couldn't even really try anything out on it. Had I not known better, I would have walked out and given VI a thumbs down, but I know that those machines get trashed with everyone poking around them.

    it would be great to get this info though, because this contradicts our intention of an authorized dealer program which schould - not at least - allow demoing the products in a proper way.
    sometimes those guys need just a little bit technical advice - you can email or PM me and we will see if we can get them going
    christian
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    @JWL said:


    8 Mac Minis as VI farms! The idea is cool, but you will see quickly that the opinions vary and even dare fly in the face of success reports of the owner of the octet of M&Ms.


    I have been following that thread, and your take on the varied opinions is exactly why I'm nervious as well. As we all know, most of us are real world beta testers for a lot of this stuff and not everything out there functions as well as advertised. Trying to get a bead on what's the best investment direction is tricky.
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    @JWL said:

    http://www.rainrecording.com/products/element64

    Is the Rain Element 64T DAW PC all hype or worth consideration as a Cube farm?

    A curious Mac user wants to know....

    (DG, I have a feeling I know what you'll say.. [:D] )

    What do you think I'm going to say?

    DG
  • J
    J
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    @JWL said:


    8 Mac Minis as VI farms! The idea is cool, but you will see quickly that the opinions vary and even dare fly in the face of success reports of the owner of the octet of M&Ms.


    I have been following that thread, and your take on the varied opinions is exactly why I'm nervious as well. As we all know, most of us are real world beta testers for a lot of this stuff and not everything out there functions as well as advertised. Trying to get a bead on what's the best investment direction is tricky.

    Here's the thing. If you want to be on the cutting edge, you have to take risks, becaue you're doing something that has not been done before. But if you want a system that's 100% stable and risk-free, which is perfectly understandable in a working situation, then you should wait a few months.

    My policy is to never make big changes to a studio when I'm on a project. I follow this policy when I work for other composers. I would never suggest to a composer working on a project to start messing around with his gear. But if you're in between two projects and have a few weeks in front of you that allows for some testing, then the risk is smaller.

    Now, in terms of money, as I said in other topics, the good thing with the Mac Mini setup is that you can invest at your own pace. You can start with one or two MMs, just to see how things are going. The investment is limited, and if it doesn't work, you're not screwed.

    Whatever you do, make sure your old system is still available as a back-up. Nothing worst than to realize your new gear doesn't work as well as you thought, while you're in the middle of a project, and you have no back-up to fall back on.

    The other solution is to have a second workstation, on which you do all the "new gear" testing. That's more expensive, but it allows you to buy and test new stuff while your main workstation is always operational. Once you're sure that the gear works for you, you can just install it on your main workstation.

    Just a couple of ideas to help you out in your choice...

    Jerome
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    @Another User said:

    ... Plus, you need to remember that, besides the VI app, the *host* AND the *OS* will have to be 64 bit to go over our dreadful 2.5GB barrier.


    That's the reason why I've not gone Intel. It will be April before we see Leopard, another series of months before the kinks get hammered out, and then who-knows-how-long before hosts and apps climb aboard the 64-bit caravan. Over the space of a year or so, a lot could happen with hardware as well. I suspect that we'll see a lot of interesting developments on both the Mac and PC side between now and January, 2008.

    If we're looking at at least a year, I think the less money spent now the better. I'm encouraged that there are a lot of options available now for building farms that won't cost a fortune.

    The question is which way to go if any money is to be spent now. Sure, a Mac Mini is not a big investment as computers go, but it's $1k towards something else more enduring. A DIY PC would be less, but it's DIY-- and I'm not a PC head by any means. I'd need serious geek help, which could be a pain in the middle of a project.

    In a nutshell, I just don't know yet what I'm going to do for the short run, but I've got three months of touring coming up so nothing has to be decided today....
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    @JWL said:

    In a nutshell, I just don't know yet what I'm going to do for the short run, but I've got three months of touring coming up so nothing has to be decided today....


    But, at the same time, three months of touring probably means your studio is not being used... which would mean it's a good time to do some "tweaking"... [6]
  • J
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    @JWL said:

    In a nutshell, I just don't know yet what I'm going to do for the short run, but I've got three months of touring coming up so nothing has to be decided today....


    But, at the same time, three months of touring probably means your studio is not being used... which would mean it's a good time to do some "tweaking"... [6]

    That's a good idea, except for one problem: I'm not going to around to do the tweaking!

    But pursuing the options now so that by the time the paychecks come in, I'll be ready to jump in one direction or another.

    Actually, I've been making other improvements within the past few weeks-- added a Duende, reconfigured some HD's and am now switching over to eSATA, looking at a Neve PS1, Tascam 4800, Digital X-Bus among others mixer/control surface options, etc. Starting at the end of December or first of the year, I'll be tearing everything out and rewiring the entire studio.

    One day at a time-- one paycheck at a time...
  • J
    J
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    @JWL said:

    That's a good idea, except for one problem: I'm not going to around to do the tweaking!


    You could find a minion to do the job for you while you're away...

    Just kidding [;)] Hehe... Been there, done that [:)]
  • J
    J
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    @JWL said:

    That's a good idea, except for one problem: I'm not going to around to do the tweaking!


    You could find a minion to do the job for you while you're away...

    Just kidding [;)] Hehe... Been there, done that [:)]

    LOL!

    J-- I'd rather screw this up myself! [:D] ... without having to pray that my stuff will still be there when I get back!

    Actually, you are a neighbor, practically. Could I entice you to a sit-down chat about the ups and downs of farms for the price of a good meal? No- make that a great meal! There are some amazing restaurants in your area...
  • D
    D
    I think that all PC users (of both MS and Apple OS) are in a bit of a quandary ATM. The new Intel Macs are very fast and appear to run both XP and OSX very well. The snag is that we are so close to Vista (and Leopard, if it actually exists) that any expensive new machine must be able to run either of these upgrades well. The only point in getting a MacPro is to be able to run Leopard eventually. It may never be possible to run Vista on it, so it will be OSX or nothing. This is fine as long as Apple actually releases something that is usable, but from past experience it will be a long and painful journey, and in any case it is quite a few months behind Vista.

    Which brings me to Vista. I think that the transition to 64bit is going to be much smoother for Vista than Leopard, particularly as many more apps are likely to be ready sooner for this OS. However, there is still going to be a transitionary period where there are likely to be problems from many sources. I personally don't want to buy any more computers until I can run at least 10GB of samples with CPU power to spare. It may seem a dream, but we aren't actually that far away. The thing is that any machine that is future proof enough for this (if it even exists yet) is going to be so expensive that in the long run it would be better to buy something cheap for now, and get something new later, when all the kinks have been ironed out and the PC components are far less expensive.

    Which brings me to your problem. I would say that to run VI, it is RAM that you will run out of before the machine cr*ps out, and therefore a relatively cheap PC, followed by a high spec Mac in a few months may be the way to go for you. Remember, the cheap PC can always be part of the farm; it just means that the farm will be bigger when you get your new Mac.

    DG
  • J
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    Sensible points, DG. Thanks.

    @Another User said:


    Which brings me to your problem. I would say that to run VI, it is RAM that you will run out of before the machine cr*ps out, and therefore a relatively cheap PC, followed by a high spec Mac in a few months may be the way to go for you. Remember, the cheap PC can always be part of the farm; it just means that the farm will be bigger when you get your new Mac.

    DG


    Yep. That RAM thing again. And loading 8GB of RAM has diminishing returns, so we're still dealing with how software handles hardware.

    Oh, I've got my beefs about both Macs and PCs, no doubt. But it's clear that my work and workflow can't hold out for much longer as all of these new innovations iron themselves out. The question now is just how much one computer-as-farm will add and whether adding two slaves is worth it... hmm.
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    @DG said:

    ...The only point in getting a MacPro is to be able to run Leopard eventually. It may never be possible to run Vista on it, so it will be OSX or nothing....


    Hmm. Why's that, I wonder? Doesn't make sense for Apple to tout running Windows now when the first thing Mac Pro owners will want to know or even assume is that Vista will also run on it... Seems like an odd approach to selling a product.

    Apple only came up with the Boot Camp thing because people had already hacked the OS and were doing it anyway. Vista is a whole new ball game, as the hardware components have to be "approved" to run Vista. There is no guarantee that any PC will run Vista unless it uses these components. I think that while it may be possible to run Vista on a MacPro there is no guarantee, and I would certainly not purchase one without a certificate from Apple (the way other PC manufacturers are doing) to say that it is "Vista approved" if I actually intended to run Vista on it.

    DG
  • J
    J
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    @DG said:

    ...The only point in getting a MacPro is to be able to run Leopard eventually. It may never be possible to run Vista on it, so it will be OSX or nothing....


    Hmm. Why's that, I wonder? Doesn't make sense for Apple to tout running Windows now when the first thing Mac Pro owners will want to know or even assume is that Vista will also run on it... Seems like an odd approach to selling a product.

    Apple only came up with the Boot Camp thing because people had already hacked the OS and were doing it anyway. Vista is a whole new ball game, as the hardware components have to be "approved" to run Vista. There is no guarantee that any PC will run Vista unless it uses these components. I think that while it may be possible to run Vista on a MacPro there is no guarantee, and I would certainly not purchase one without a certificate from Apple (the way other PC manufacturers are doing) to say that it is "Vista approved" if I actually intended to run Vista on it.

    DG

    Well, it's clear that those MS users who decided to buy an Intel Mac for the purpose of running MSOS will be furious if this issue isn't made clear. Apple's marketing has intentionally bled over into the non-Apple market share with its semi-native hybrid platform approach. If Boot Camp is the end-all to MS on a Mac, there's going to be a beeeeeeg problem. I can't believe that Apple is not thinking ahead in this regard.

    And if the current machines are not Vista approved, then those with Intel-Macs expecting to run Vista without any clear word otherwise are going to tear Apple a new *core* for potentially switching gears with all new hardware.

    That's not only like putting the cart before the horse, but also like putting the wheels inside the cart for another day.
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    @JWL said:


    8 Mac Minis as VI farms! The idea is cool, but you will see quickly that the opinions vary and even dare fly in the face of success reports of the owner of the octet of M&Ms.


    I have been following that thread, and your take on the varied opinions is exactly why I'm nervious as well. As we all know, most of us are real world beta testers for a lot of this stuff and not everything out there functions as well as advertised. Trying to get a bead on what's the best investment direction is tricky.

    Here's the thing. If you want to be on the cutting edge, you have to take risks, becaue you're doing something that has not been done before. But if you want a system that's 100% stable and risk-free, which is perfectly understandable in a working situation, then you should wait a few months.

    My policy is to never make big changes to a studio when I'm on a project. I follow this policy when I work for other composers. I would never suggest to a composer working on a project to start messing around with his gear. But if you're in between two projects and have a few weeks in front of you that allows for some testing, then the risk is smaller.

    Now, in terms of money, as I said in other topics, the good thing with the Mac Mini setup is that you can invest at your own pace. You can start with one or two MMs, just to see how things are going. The investment is limited, and if it doesn't work, you're not screwed.

    Whatever you do, make sure your old system is still available as a back-up. Nothing worst than to realize your new gear doesn't work as well as you thought, while you're in the middle of a project, and you have no back-up to fall back on.

    The other solution is to have a second workstation, on which you do all the "new gear" testing. That's more expensive, but it allows you to buy and test new stuff while your main workstation is always operational. Once you're sure that the gear works for you, you can just install it on your main workstation.

    Just a couple of ideas to help you out in your choice...

    Jerome

    Thanks for the reply Jerome. That's my policy as well. I have about a 3 week break right now between TV and feature projects, the frist break in almost a year, so I'm making my move right now before everything starts up again (along with a short vacation)

    I'm keeping all my current giga set ups and putting VI onto seperate new drives so I have both installed until I can make sure I have everything set up the way I like to work. I also upgraded to the new GVI for each machine because a huge portion of my working lib is not VSL. All in all, I try to keep all mt options open as I redesign my rig until I know for sure how I will change my set up.
    I might just try out the VI on my macbook pro and the PC's before I buy any new machines.
    Are you still happy with the Mac farm? No unforseen difficulties?
    Also, are you using MOL? I demoed it and tried it going from my G5 to the Macbook and found the latency to be HUGE. It was unusable. By comparision, using the native network had no noticable latency. Seems a lot of people are going the MOL route, so I figure it must be working, and I've something up with mine. The native works great, but it's limited in ports and no PC.