There are times when a pure non-vib open string is desired, but strings players can interpolate vibrato on open strings by stopping another string an octave higher and using vibrato on it while bowing the open string concurrently. This is a form of frequency modulation. In that sense, it *is* realistic.

I'm not in front of my Cube computer right now and it's been a while since I've used any of my solo strings-- but are you saying that you're finding absolutely no open strings without vibrato? Seems too obvious a sample to have been omitted.

hmmm...

Having been a violinist from childhood, I am quite familiar with the technique you describe, but I am suggesting that, in music of moderate or fast tempos, it is far more common to use the open string sound than to use the technique you are describing (with sympathetic - - frequency modulation - - vibrato played an octave above). Moreover it obvious that most composers count on hearing anon-vibrato sound when writing for the lowest open string on a string instrument (e.g. the open G at the beginnng of the prelude to Act III of Wagner's Tristan).

In the Vienna Instruments solo viola library there is vibrato on the open C string in

the sustain vibrato patch
the perf leg patch
the perf marc. patch
the perf. leg. (fa) patch
the perf. trill patch (particularly unrealistic).
There is a non-vib open string on:

the non-vibrato sustain patch
the long detaché patch
the fast patches (staccato, spiccato)

The violin is about the same,except that the long detaché patch has an open string vibrato on G.

The cello has open string non-vibrato samples on most of these same patches. The expr. patch has, as on emight expect, vibrato on the open C.

From my experience as a string player the ubiquity of vibrato on the lowest open string of the viola and violin in the VI Solo String library is not an accurate portrayal of string practice. It woud be most helpful if there were a way to change the sample used for these notes to non-vibrato without having to load the entire non-vibrato patch.

Understood, Steve. My post was not intended to offend, epsecially a career violinist.

However, I got the impression that you were not able to find *any* non vibrato open string patches for the violin.

As I understand it now, you find the notion of having to load/switch entire matrices inconvenient. Is that correct?

What if you saved a copy of your matrix under a different name and then added the non-vibrato patch(es) you desire to that matrix? Please forgive me if I've again misunderstood. The Cube can get tricky to reconcile when one gets into the nooks and crannies, but maybe my suggestion could be a happy medium until such time the collection is updated?

J.

No offense taken at all. I was just saying that it would seem better to put a non-vib open string sample of the lowest note on most of the articulations or give the user a choice of using a non-vib sample for that note - - simply because that is the way that note is most often played. Also the lowest open string note is always played non-vibrato in double. triple or quadruple stops when the next note up is not an octave - - so that having a vibrato sample of the lowest open string in polyphonic patches such as vib.sustain makes little sense - - at least to me.)

Also note that the cello patches have fewer instances of vibrato on the low C and the viola long detaché has no vibrato on tha note in contrast to violin long detaché (with vib) which does. In other words it's not consistent. The work around is either to have a cell devoted to the non-vibrato sustain and to access it with a keyswitch or controller - but this would not work with a double/triple/quadruple stop -- or to set it up for a cell crossfade using a CC (which would work with multiple stops). Probably the best solution - - if you are writing intricately is to have the non-vib sustain on a separate channel and track so that you can control it independently and also use the optimize function to lower the sample count. However, non-vibrato sustain is part of the extended library (for which I own a license) not, as I think it should be, part of the standard library. Another thing along this line, the polyphonic patches should, at least, have the capability of playing non-vib samples when the two lowest strings are sounded together - - as there is no other way to play these notes. So, yes there are workarounds, but it requires a bit of work just to get playback to conform to the most common performance practice. This seems contradictory to the goal of the VI software which is to make the library easier and more intuitive to play. In most ways this goal has been realized, but not, I think, in this case.

A couple of days ago, I too was very confused that the low C of the viola had a vibrato. Even more puzzling is the fact that to me it actually sounds like a "real" vibrato and not like an "interpolated" vibrato, as JWL calls it (i.e., a vibrato on a neighbouring, resonant string).

I strongly second stevesong's opinion that the lowest string should have a non-vibrato sound as a default. The standard, default way of playing the lowest note of a string instrument shouldn't be only available to the owners of the extended library.

I would be most appreciative if someone from the VSL team commented on this issue and whether there might be a remedy in the future. Would it be feasible to have an A/B/C switch for these patches that allowed the user to determine whether the lowest open string or the two lowest open strings would be played non-vibrato or with-vibrato? As it is, giving an accurate rendition of the opening G minor chord (quadruple stop) of the Bach Sonata #1 for solo violin requires two MIDI channels. Admittedly you could use the progressive vibrato patch for this, but then the point at which the vibrato began in the upper notes would be determined by the recorded sample.

@stevesong said:

I would be most appreciative if someone from the VSL team commented on this issue and whether there might be a remedy in the future.

Bump...

Dear Stevesong,

To address the A/B, you could use a patch x-fade control, mapped to your MIDI controller. It does not solve the issue of the quadruple stop however, since many violinists might tend to vibrato the stopped notes and not the others. This would require a choice per note of which patch to use, which would not be possible in VI without using two instances, unless I am mistaken.

To keep everything on the same track in your sequencer (although you would still require multiple instances of the VI) you could try re-routing the MIDI to a different channels based on a) the note and b) the value of some controller, to re-route the open strings to the alternative "open-string" MIDI channel/VI. Certainly Logic could do this; not sure about other sequencers. Sounds like a bit of hassle, but if you use a lot of open strings it may be worthwhile.

In some ways it is a limitation of the VI that for simultaneous notes requiring different patches there does not appear to be a way of mapping them. For me it is not an onerous limitation, but I guess for others it may be.

Kind Regards,

Nick.

Dear Nick:

Thanks so much for your suggestions - - which I may try out. However, my point is that, in the vast majority of its occurrences, violinists play and composers expect to hear the open G string without vibrato - - a datum reflected by the fact that, in most other solo string libraries - - none of which is remotely comparable in quality in any other respect with the VI Solo Strings - - a non vibrato open G string is the default. It seems to me odd that the very best currently avaiable solo string library does not reflect this basic fact of performance practice.

It is true that it is possible to create a frequency modulation vibrato by vibrating the G an octave above the open string (without playing it) while playing the open G, but this can be done only when the music allows time for the performer to do this. Another sort of solution to the problem with quadruple stops employing open strings is to use the progressive vibrato patch - - but here the onset of the vibrato is determined by the sample - - so that it is the same every time. I find that a cell cross fade between vibrato and non-vibrato samples involves a disconcerting timbral shift - - and unless doen very quickly, causes one to hear to violins at the crossfade point. What I would really like is an A-Bb-B switch on the sustain vibrato patch that would allow the user to turn vibrato on or off on one or both of the lower strings of all the solo strings. In the meantime using separate channels seems an effective, if cumbersome, workaround. But then for each instrumental track I already have two separate tracks for instrument keyswitches and matrix keyswitches.

I once more listened carefully to the performance of the lowest note of the solo violin, solo viola, and solo cello. I can't help it: to me it sounds like a REAL vibrato, and not like an open string with a pseudo-vibrato on a neighbouring, resonating string. I strongly suspect that the lowest note was recorded with a scordatura: the bottom string was tuned down so that the "lowest" note didn't have to be played on an open string any more!

I'd greatly appreciate if someone of VSL could comment on this...

A friend of mine, a classical professional violinist come to visit me to listen to my new strings. As he didn't like Garritan, he thought Opus 1 is better but not so convincing, I hoped ina good reaction and in fact he was very impressed from Solo Strings Extended.
But he was as well very upset about the "non-sense" vibrato of the lowest notes.
He didn't think it is a "scordatura" but a multisampled G# for G and so on.
Sergino

Pierre and Sergino:

I'm afraid I have to agree with you - - tha the violin's open G and the viola's open C in samples such as sustained vibrato sound like stopped notes rather than an open string being modulated by a silently vibrated note an octave above. I also think that this is merely a transposed sample of another note as Sergino suggests. This seems odd when there is a complete set of non-vibrato samples easily available (extended library only). I think that basic patches such as sustain vibrato should at least give the user the choice of what sample plays on the two lowest strings (e.g. A0 = Open G,
B0 - open G & D). As a I pointed out earlier, G minor or G major quadruple stops (GDBG) require that the two lowest strings be open. The only way to accomplish this now is to 1. purchase the extended library and 2. use two MIDI channels so that the non-virato and vibrato samples can be played simultaneously. The fact that so common a musical event as this quadruple stop requires two MIDI channels (and purchase of he extended version) seems counter to the goal of performance ease ennunciatd by and so well implemented in other respects by the
Vienna Instruments Libraries.

I really don't understand why there is no comment by Herb about this. He is a Cello player and should be able to clarify why they chose to do so.

I simply like it this way.
Vibrato patches without opended string samples, nonvibrato with open string samples.
During my cello carreer I always hated it not being able to perform vibrato on the lowest note. So we had to fix this restriction. [[;)]]

Further we didn't record any intervall performances with opened strimgs, so it's not possible to offer optional open strings for performamce patches.

best
Herb

But since you seem to have open strings in the non-vib sustain samples (single notes), could you note you not make them optional (at least G & D on the violin and C & G on the viola and cello) in the sustained vibrato patches - (single notes, not performance patches))?

For those users who prefer open strings on one of or both of thee lowest open strings in these instruments - - in situations where the composer obviously wants to hear open strings (as in the violin quadruple stop I mentioned in my previous posting), this would make it unecessary to employ two channels to achieve this effect. Since you appear to have samples of these notes already, would it possible to implement an A0 (vibrato G)-Bb0 (open string G, stopped vib D)-B0 (open G&D)- - or some other kind of - - switch?

The contrast between the sound of an open string and a vibrating stopped string is sometimes an important compositional device - - as it is in the first bar of the Prelude of Act III of Wagner's Tristan - where the first and second violins are doubled on an open G playing against a Bb minor triad in the rest of the string section (with all notes in the other strings, therefore, stopped and vibrato).

Thanks Herb, for your answer. Although it does seem rather idiosyncratic and fiddly to get a more common performance, particularly of the lowest note (G or C) which I, as an amateur composer, rarely specifically mark with an "o", but do cherish the moments when it occurs, because of its base nature.

Personally I've always loved the contrast between open and stopped strings, the loss of vibrato, to me, is more than made up by the increased resonance and contrast in performance. Reserving the lower open strings in Cellos and Double Basses for climaxes has been a technique used for centuries.

Are all the fundamentals in the "non-vibrato" library "Open", i.e. E,A,D,G (for a Violin) or is just the "lowest" note "Open" (i.e. the "G")?

@herb said:

I simply like it this way. During my cello carreer I always hated it not being able to perform vibrato on the lowest note. So we had to fix this restriction. [[;)]]

And HOW did you "fix" it? By a scordatura or by "transposing" a C# with vibrato down a semitone...?

I always thought VSL tries to provide virtual instruments that are as close as possible to their real counterparts... If natural restrictions of the instruments are to be "fixed", how about extending their ranges by transposing the topmost notes further up and the bottom notes further down...? [[:|]]

I completely agree with stevesong that users should at least have the possibility to conform to the most common performance practices without having to make tedious workarounds!