All in all an interesting discussion so far about the (relative) merits of sequencer vs. notation programs. As I see things, we live basically in different worlds when working – predominantly – either with notation programs or sequencers: Notation means producing scores and parts to be performed by real musicians whereas sequencing is aimed at audio production for film, TV, CD etc. as its final result. Insofar it's no wonder that these worlds are different: Notation programs are deficient when it comes to audio qualities (as needed for audio rendition) and sequencers are weak when it comes to scoring (as needed for musicians, particularly in modern music – not to speak of publishing as sheet music!).

Nevertheless, future development will necessarily go to include more features from either side – in the end possibly resulting in unified tools for creating music. In my opinion, the NOTION program [rather stupid name for a NOtaTION program!] is on the right track: Everything what you can do in a sequencer is – or should be! – representable and executable with conventional notational symbols and terms as developed over centuries (including ours) of notating music.

Hansen

@R.K. said:

Micheal
Can I ask you the same question that steve so honestly replied. Why don't you just use the logic score instead. Mind you steve said he had been used to finale from day one and perhaps he did not want to take the learning curve with logic ? If I understood correctly.

Hang in there alex, this is getting interesting.

R.K.

For me the answer to that question is about the way those programs do what I need them to do. I am a composer or orchestral, chamber, and other concert music. The notation side of Logic simply does not provide me with anything close to the level of options that I need for notation. I could list many problems, but its treament of tuplets alone would not work for me.

Michael

I have a similar setup for my current pro edition, but hopefully I'll be getting VI soon to replace gigastudio. Currently I route like this: Finale > Cubase > Gigastudio (via gigateleport). The main problem I have is with finale not being able to address more than 4 channels(4 layers, 1 per channel) without constant patch changes. I got arround this with Opus 1 by using the keyswitch patches and manually entering them into the score as grace notes which I could later hide for printing. But now that I have Pro edition, the patches are so large that a single channel can't contain all the articulations that I want. I'm hoping VI will solve this issue for me, at least in part (It's looking like I may need more PCs).

I just managed to scrape together what I need for the Orch Cube Standard Library, so hopefully in a few weeks I'll know if it helps or not lol.

@michael.matthews said:

The notation side of Logic simply does not provide me with anything close to the level of options that I need for notation. I could list many problems, but its treament of tuplets alone would not work for me.

I second this. I make much of my living from music preparation work and could never use Logic for professional output. It does a nice job of creating a reasonable score from a sequence, but nowhere close to anything I would want to put in front of a musician in the studio or on the bandstand.

It would be rather nice if Logic, or Cubase were reconfigured to present scores both in construction and printout, to a Lilypond standard. Then we'd get the best of both worlds. (Sequencer vs notation). Surely it can't be that hard, or unprofitable.

Alex.

Robert:

The solution to your problem with the number of MIDI channels available on each staff in Finale is simply to put in hidden channel change markings using Finale's note expression tool. You make the marking hidden with either a menu command or by selecting the text and typing command-shift-h and you give the marking a MIDI meaning by clicking on the playback tab and using the flip menu that appears in the resultant dialog box. If you do this you could, theoretically, have 128 MIDI channels available in each of Finale's 4 layers.

Alex:

The problem is that world-wide demand for sophisticated music notation software is such that it has supported the continuing development of only two applications (Sibelius and Finale) made by small companies with relatively limited resources. Sibelius has been acquired by Avid (of which Digidesign is a division) so that there is the possibility that greater resources will be available fo its future development. Avid's acquisition of Sibelius leads, as I said in an earlier posting, to speculation that MakeMusic (the company that makes Finale) might be acquired by Apple or Mark of the Unicorn - - a situation that would make available significantly enhanced resources for Finale's future development. In other words, there appears to be some reason to hope that both applications will develop in the direction that we all would like.

Steve,
I hear you. I was hoping when Sib went to version 4, we'd get hosting, and changes to take advantage of new sample library formats. The response i got to an email asking if this was going to happen, wasn't favourable. Sibelius told me they'd need to rebuild the entire program, and they had no intention of doing that in the near future.

I still hope they get this together, but i've been hoping for a long time now. (Same with Cubase's score component. It's one of the reasons i went to another program, as i got so frustrated with Steinberg's lack of interest in refining this aspect of their programs. Trouble is, the others weren't any better, and i'm near to switching back to Nuendo, as the rest of the program seems better overall, than what i'm currently using.)

I've also had a look at notion, but i'm not sure they get it either.

And Overture 4 is about to be released for MAC, so i'll probably d/l the demo, and try that as well. At least Don at Geniesoft is trying to give us what we want. Which is not just my wishlist, but judging by comments on their forum, the aspiration of a lot of composers with notation as their working prefernce.

We can but wait, and do the best with what we have now.

Regards,

Alex.

@stevesong said:

Robert:

The solution to your problem with the number of MIDI channels available on each staff in Finale is simply to put in hidden channel change markings using Finale's note expression tool. You make the marking hidden with either a menu command or by selecting the text and typing command-shift-h and you give the marking a MIDI meaning by clicking on the playback tab and using the flip menu that appears in the resultant dialog box. If you do this you could, theoretically, have 128 MIDI channels available in each of Finale's 4 layers.

Yes, I know this. You can use the expression tool to send just about any midi message possible, actually, so if you had the time and patience you really could sequence that way. It is simply too unweidly to be used. Realistically if I'm loading an articulation per channel in gigastudio I'd have to channel change almost every note for every instrument. Plus, with this method I can't hear playback with midi thru while in the actual composing stage; I have to send a channel change message to get to my other patches(something I can't do easily with my studiologic controller). With VI, I'm hoping to be able to use speed control and keyswitches to accomplish everything accross one midi channel in an easier fasion.

Very Interesting. the mastery level of everyone with their own program is undoubtfull. So I will maintain my grounds and indeed reasure anyone. I am indeed have found logic's score not only sufficient, but have no problems in what instruments to use , how many instruments to use, The amount of way's to use to write with, weather its playing and then notating, or the amounts of keyboards beeing used. This sequencing program is by far the most realistic in playback and feel. the notation lookes maybe is not as good as finale or sibelius or notion, but its acceptable enough comparing the old day's of hand written copyiest transcription. i have no problem with triplets, especialy when their is a grid on the midi side that one can fraction in thirds for speed inputs and mirror notes, move each note by mouse in any direction. Zoom the program back far enough to see the entire picture instead of being in the middle of pages scrolling through continously in midst. By far the composition level is at best and far more ongoing by speed, moving by pace. The manual was written by a professor at mozartian college, who uses logic's score himself for school and composition. I will admit at this level, I had to create my own score styles fit to my own needs and style of writing, There are no books at this level of logic's score. And frankly and personaly the notation looks is bigger and can be configured to any needs. And can be read even clearer by anyone. I will never go back to any notation program, because they can not fulfill all aspects of composing , recording, Audio, orchestrating with playback feel. The idea of sequencing programs cannot fulfil notation is correct with the exception of logic. Its the only program for those who need to run a full blown studio and use the notation side as well.

I respect anyone's expert mastery of their own program. And I have no complaints what so-ever using logic with VSL or any side of the recording notation medium. This combination produces music and its notation alongside freely with no trouble or complaints.

RK,
I agree with your point, of mastery. And i'll be frank, coming from parchment to Cubase to Logic, the parchment i know, Cubase i did too, but Logic is still a learning curve for me. So, it's fair to say my skills in Logic are lesser, which in itself brings an element of frustration.

Having said that, i will stick to my guns too. [[:|]]

I still think the major DAW's would benefit a great deal from a more active and professionally minded approach to scoring within the program.

Now i'm waiting for you to accuse me of being old fashioned.......

Regards,

Alex.
[:)]

I would have got more into Logic's notation side, but I'm a huge fan of quintuplets... for me, the quintuplet is the new triplet! [;)]

And Logic notation stumbles like an old drunk when trying to deal with quintuplets. At least that's my experience.

J.

I still respect everyone's experties and masterey of their own notation programs and Alex it takes an old hand at any of these programs to fully understand them. Its said that no one will ever master logic. For it has many sides and faces. Its a beast and a monster. But its worth mastering one's need of individual and variant side. The quantuplets and octuplets ect.. is still very easily handled with midi grill. Having to find the right choice of mathematical cymbol maybe throws a learning curve that might fray anyone, but their are also other way's in dealing with this issue. By just playing any grouping and simply marking with text any cymbal quickly. Its somthing that any program has of its own complexity. The notes in Finale' are frozen and cannot be moused from side to side, that to me is a frustrating issue , an unorthidox way of frustration far worse than any other sticky time consuming issue. Complex notation takes extreme concintration to mathematically divide and experiment to finaly decide what and how a complex passage is going to be notated anyhow. Its the complexity variant that one is trying to avoid after all. And trying to keep composition a thought. Logic gives many sides open for experimenting with plain notation from clef to clef. i use the midi side for notating more than the ordinary score side. The midi in finale and other programs are a joke. But the score looks great and profesional. Therfore they are the solemn notation programs. I'm stopping here and going no further. again i respect everyone's opinion and I'm sure as this technology expands, I will get to learn from everyone else from further upgrading. And different approaches that everyones being forced to take, be it time concumption or other issues. Thanks for your perspectives and proffesional info. You could be forcing a whole new approach. I'm with you. Excited.

R.K:
I agree entirely with your point about mastery - - that each one of us has mastered a different application and is, therefore, most comfortable using that application for our purposes. However, you do seem to assert something that is not factualy correct about Finale when you say "the notes in Finale' are frozen and cannot be moused from side to side." It is, in fact, easily possible to move notes from side to side in Finale using the cursor in Finale's Speedy Entry Tool or with the note positioning tool in Finale's special tools, or employing the note placement function of Finale's measure tool. I use these various methods every day.

yeah I had that issue when I started using finale, with '97. But ever since 2000 or 2001 spacing has been a non-issue for me.(AKA they made it easy to respace things properly)

Yes i'm familiar when they started using the mouse to grab and enter the notes with the mouse, but can you grab multiple pages and move them, and in those edit further by highlighting with mouse , or can you look at the notes from an architectural view, editing from midi not only simplifies but this is the velocity, sustain, spreadout, in, the complete playback feel that turns the score to realism and the quickness and accurace thats the more important. Using a curser by moving notes is not copletely a free way of moving notes, grabbing notes with a mouse without using a tool is the orthadox way of moving notes without having to go through another tool to use. Its the restraints of grabbing the notes that keeps finale's notes lined up in order that makes the score look so great. That is finale's strength the very same that is slow and frustating. you have three entrees to input notes, and they are mechanical. To play in notes uses & drains the memory. This is unorthadox altogether. And not a composers way of working. Its a publishers way of working. But if you want issues that logic cannot handle apposed to finale's , I'll give you some, for example if you want to change key or time signature in a concert score between clefs or multiple changes at the same time, finale's more than capable and logic is unorthodox. Of-course their are ways of hiding these things and using the text tool in logic to accomplish, but its unorthadox, i will admit. But how often does one do something like that. Another is using guitar fret picture tablature, finale's is more than set up to handle it, scanning is another, logic will not at all scan. I keep finale on hand to use also, but not for composing or ease of use. Frankly steve i have alot of respect for you, its not that one has alot of time teaching and endless amount of time experimenting with programs. Although you might be the one person to change logic's font for everyone, who knows. You know the old saying is if it aint broke dont fix it.