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  • Vienna Instruments with notation programs?

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    In another thread,

    @cm said:


    the first and pro edition products are available for gigastudio and exs(logic pro)
    the horizon series products are available for gigastudio, exs, halion and kontakt
    the Vienna Instruments Collections have their own player software (stand-alone, VST, AU)
    hope this makes it clearer, christian

    For me, this puts a question of considerable concern with respect to my work as a composer who works solely with notation programs (and not with sequencers at all): Is there a way to work with VI in conventional notation programs like Finale or Sibelius? As far as I know, VSL is not very interested in such matters. However, at least for the Horizon Series there is a work-around to integrate VSL sounds with the help of plug-ins. For Sibelius this is done by writing plug-ins in the ManuScript programming language for Kontakt2 (see http://web.mac.com/dbudde/iWeb/Plugins/Home.html">http://web.mac.com/dbudde/iWeb/Plugins/Home.html).

    Is there a similar way to use the above mentioned VI's player software together with the ManuScript to write plug-ins for using Vienna Instruments in Sibelius?

    Hansen

  • Manuscript based plugins are capable of creating any type of midi message in a Sibelius score based on some predefined mapping of articulations and other markings in the score. The VI player software uses midi commands to interpret what to do. So it is entirely possible for a manuscript plugin for Sibelius to do what you want.

    The problem is finding someone to write it. I wrote the one for Opus1 Kontakt version because that is what I own and what I wanted and am capable of writing plugins.

    But there is no fundamental technology reason that one cannot be written for the Vienna Instuments.

    It's possible, however, that the next round of Notation programs come with built in capabilities that make using Notation programs with these more advanced sample players easier to deal with. But it's probably a year out in terms of timing at a minimum and even then this is just my opinion. I don't work for any of these notation comapnies so I don't know for sure if that is in the cards, but it seems to make sense.

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    @Another User said:

    It's possible, however, that the next round of Notation programs come with built in capabilities that make using Notation programs with these more advanced sample players easier to deal with. But it's probably a year out in terms of timing at a minimum and even then this is just my opinion. I don't work for any of these notation comapnies so I don't know for sure if that is in the cards, but it seems to make sense.


    You're right, this will be the next round of notation programs. Interestingly, there's already one on the market: NOTION from notionmusic.com (alias VirtuosoWorks, see http://www.notionmusic.com/). This notation program works already completely equipped with sample sounds from the London Symphony Orchestra. It's easy to include every imaginable musical symbol in the score (for articulations, dynamics, playing techniques) and it will be played back accordingly. Even a trigger mechanism is built-in where you can "humanize" the playback of your score (the so-called NTempo mechanism). However, as a notation program NOTION is still in its infancy (version 1.5) and far off from professionality with respect to editing and navigation.

    If only Sibelius would go somehow along this line and include the VSL sounds! (Could there be any hope now where Sibelius has become part of Avid?)

  • I'm bullish on the notion that the Avid acqusition of Sibelius will bode well for playback capabilities. But we'll have to wait and see.

    I think the Sibelius GPO edition is as good as if not better than what Notion offers.

  • I am surprised that no one mentioned more about this issue.

    Finale is capable of playing any instrument in Kontakt format, or VSTi's that use the Kompakt player, however it will not play other VSTi's such as VSL's V.I. For this reason, I have chosen not to upgrade. There was speculation about why the people who program Finale will not implement full VSTi compatability, but no "offical" word on their reasons.

    The only program that I know of that will play *any* VSTi is Overture. I switched to this program, and I find that it fills my musical needs very well. I was interested in using Finale, but they will not allow me to work with my V.I. from VSL. They made their choice, and I made mine.

  • In terms of plugins, Finale 2006 and 2007 appear to be compatible only with Native Instrument products. In addition these versions of Finale compel the user to choose between

    1. playback of "external devices" - - including both actual external devices (such as hardware samplers or Windows machines running Gigastudio) and virtual insytruments accessed through the IAC drivers OR
    2. playback of NI plugins within Finale

    Yo can't do both simultaneously. The ostensible reason for this design is the tight integration of Finale GPO with Finale's "Human Playback" feature.

    To avoid the problems inherent in this design I created a Logic environment that allows Finale (or any other MIDI program) to play Logic's Audio Instruments. I play Gigastudio on an external machine simultaneously. Something similar could be achieved if the VI host were RAX or Digital Performer. However, for this to work with Finale, "Human Playback" either has to be turned off or you have to adjustthe "human playback" settings so that they work with your particular VIs.

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    @stevesong said:

    In terms of plugins, Finale 2006 and 2007 appear to be compatible only with Native Instrument products. In addition these versions of Finale compel the user to choose between

    1. playback of "external devices" - - including both actual external devices (such as hardware samplers or Windows machines running Gigastudio) and virtual insytruments accessed through the IAC drivers OR
    2. playback of NI plugins within Finale

    Yo can't do both simultaneously. The ostensible reason for this design is the tight integration of Finale GPO with Finale's "Human Playback" feature.

    To avoid the problems inherent in this design I created a Logic environment that allows Finale (or any other MIDI program) to play Logic's Audio Instruments. I play Gigastudio on an external machine simultaneously. Something similar could be achieved if the VI host were RAX or Digital Performer. However, for this to work with Finale, "Human Playback" either has to be turned off or you have to adjustthe "human playback" settings so that they work with your particular VIs.


    Steve,
    I'd be really interested to know how you setup the environment.
    As a reluctant Sibelius user, i've tried several different combinations, with the intent of Sibelius playing back EXS instruments, and importantly, notated articulation, none of them very successful in terms of streamlined ease of use.

    Regards,

    Alex.

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    @Hansen said:


    You're right, this will be the next round of notation programs. Interestingly, there's already one on the market: NOTION from notionmusic.com (alias VirtuosoWorks, see http://www.notionmusic.com/). This notation program works already completely equipped with sample sounds from the London Symphony Orchestra. It's easy to include every imaginable musical symbol in the score (for articulations, dynamics, playing techniques) and it will be played back accordingly. Even a trigger mechanism is built-in where you can "humanize" the playback of your score (the so-called NTempo mechanism). However, as a notation program NOTION is still in its infancy (version 1.5) and far off from professionality with respect to editing and navigation.


    Is it possible to play the VI samples or hook up Gigastudio with NOTION?
    And are NOTION really the only seq with "NTempo"?

  • Alex:

    Below is something I posted here and on various other forums with basic instructions for slaving Logic's Audio Instruments to Finale. Note that I use the shareware program MIDI Patchbay to "buffer" Finale's outputs and avoid stuck and/or missing notes. Finale 2007 supposedly has fixed the bug that caused this problem. (One of the manifestations of this bug was that Finale was sending extraneous Sync messages to Logic even when "Send MIDI Sync" was turned off in Finale. This required turning off "auto-enable receive external sync" in Logic (Logic/File Menu/Song Settings/Synchronization). Also, one important feature that Finale has is the ability to create hidden symbols for channel changes so one is not limited to one channel per staff.

    How to slave Logic to Finale (may not work as reliably with Finale 2006) on a single PowerMac:

    Obtain a copy of the shareware program MIDI Patchbay at:

    http://pete.yandell.com/software/


    Activate the IAC driver in Audio MIDI Setup. Create the requisite number of ports. (These ports are just like ports on a MIDI interface – 16 MIDI channels per port)

    Open Finale.

    Go to the MIDI Menu.

    Choose MIDI Setup

    Under input devices for channels 1-16 select your MIDI Controller; under output devices for Channels 1-16, select IAC Port 1, under output devices for channels 17-32 choose either IAC Port 2 etc.

    Open MIDI Patchbay:

    Using the Edit Virtual Outputs command under the flip menu on the right hand side of the dialog box create outputs for Logic. (e.g Logic Port 1, Logic Port 2. Create and enable a Patch that directs MIDI data to go from IAC Port 1 to Logic Port 1 repeat this action for any other Finale Output you want to go to a Logic Port. Save the document. When reopening MIDI Patchbay you will always get a default document. Close this default document and open the saved document you created.

    Open Logic:

    Go to the Clicks and Ports page of Logic’s environment. On the Physical Input you will see the IAC ports. Wire these ports to monitor objects. Create a corresponding number of Channel splitter objects - - naming them Finale Port 1, Finale Port 2, etc. . Connect these to the monitor objects you just created. (Take the wire from the monitor object output and stick it in the back of the Channel Splitter Object.)

    Go to the Audio layer of the Environment. Create 16 or 32 or however many audio instruments you wish, instantiate EXS24, or whatever AU plugin sampler you wish in these instruments. Make sure the AI’s are assigned to different channels. Move the Channel splitters to the Audio layer. (select the channel splitters and hold down the option key while selecting the Audio layer: using this procedure you can move any object from one layer to another). Wire the Channel Splitters sequentially to the Audio Instrument Objects. (Use the front ports on the Channel Splitters which are labeled 1-16, do not use the SUM port). Thus Channels 1-16 on the Channel splitter Finale Port 1 are wired sequentially to Audio Instruments 1-16 and the MIDI Channel selection for each Audio Instrument corresponds to the port on the Channel Splitter. Do the same for the each Channel Splitter. Load whatever samples you want into the multiple instances of EXS 24 or VI instruments or any other virtual instrument plugins you wish.

    Move the Channel Splitters back to the Clicks and Ports Layer. Play something on your keyboard controller and check to see if the Monitor Objects show MIDI data. The port is live when you see MIDI data appearing within the Monitor Object. When you have determined that the ports are live go to Logic’s Arrange Window. In the Arrange Window create a NO OUTPUT Object. Select the NO OUTPUT track – as if this were to be the live track in the Arrange window. This avoids creating a MIDI feedback loop.

    Return to Finale and set the instruments to those you want to hear in the Instrument List. Playback and EXS24 (or whatever other virtual instrument plugins you have instantiated) will play what you have written. To play different instruments within EXS 24 from your MIDI Controller, set the MIDI controller to send on the same Channel as the desired instrument.

    I have been using variants of this setup successfully since October 2004 with Finale 2004, then Finale 2005 and, less successfully - - because of problems with stuck and missing notes - - with Finale 2006. It gives you access to all of Logic’s plugins and all third party AU plug-ins. It also allows you to play back from Finale while simultaneously bouncing a stereo audio file into Logic.

  • Stevesong
    After reading your thorough and well manifested cabling and program implementations. I'm just curious to ask, why don't you use logic's notation all-together. Mind you I've not any experience with VI. Just pro/ed. But I've wondered what would Vi set up be compared to pro/ed. in score page ? I understand Finale's score locks on to a better looking score and guitar tablature of-course. Scanning to mantion anothor etc.. But I'm wondering why not just use logic's notation ? Or are you just fulfilling the previous thread onto the possibilities on using finale's. In that case nevermind, and thanks for the info.

  • Stevesong
    I just noticed that I overlooked your name which holds the clue. You're a songwriter. therefore that makes sense. Finale' does make excellent sheet music. And is worth using for that format. Although I still havn't heard from anyone on how VI is being used with the score page ?

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    @R.K. said:

    Stevesong
    After reading your thorough and well manifested cabling and program implementations. I'm just curious to ask, why don't you use logic's notation all-together. Mind you I've not any experience with VI. Just pro/ed. But I've wondered what would Vi set up be compared to pro/ed. in score page ? I understand Finale's score locks on to a better looking score and guitar tablature of-course. Scanning to mantion anothor etc.. But I'm wondering why not just use logic's notation ? Or are you just fulfilling the previous thread onto the possibilities on using finale's. In that case nevermind, and thanks for the info.


    RK, some have had this discussion here before, and the consensus among many seems to be that Logic's notation. like so many notation components inside of major DAW's is inadequate and time consuming, compared to a dedicated nontation program like Finale or Sibelius. Both those programs have advantages in terms of usage, and printout, but disadvantaged by their inability to playback, record, and identify external articulative varations. It's fair to say the sample library market has steamed ahead with many efficient improvements, and innovations, but the notation and daw makers are still trading on the technology they developed some years ago. (IMHO) One only has to read specific product forums to understand this.

    It is, ultimately, a matter of choice and working practise, and some get on with logic's notation ok, likewise cubase, etc....

    But i think if the day comes when a notation or daw developer really works at efficient notational input and finished result, coupled with solid integration into a DAW playback and record structure, then quite a few people may be interested.
    (Cubase and Logic could do this within the relative framework they've already built. It's just a case of wanting to.)


    Steve,

    Thanks for the information. I did have a spell with Patchbay, but couldn't figure it out to the degree i wanted. You've provided the extra information i was lacking, so i'll go back and try again after the current batch of work.
    I appreciate the time you took to explain this.

    Regards,

    Alex.

  • Alex:

    Glad that the information I provided appears to have been helpful. Actually, despite my screen-name, I would not describe myself as mainly a "songwriter" - - although I have written quite a number of songs - - but I am a composer of "concert" music - piano, chamber, vocal and orchestral. The reason I use Finale is simple - I've been using it since version 1.5 (c.1990), and have become fairly adept with it, given college courses in its use and employed it as a medium for teaching music at the college level. I am really not well-acquainted with Logic's notational capabilities and would happily avoid having to learn another notation program when there is one that I already know fairly well.

    On another point: Avid's acquisition of Sibelius is interesting to me and no doubt to other - - especially long-time - - Finale users in that it invites speculation about what might happen to Finale - - especially the idea that MakeMusic (Finale's parent company) might be acquired by Apple or Mark of the Unicorn. One might imagine, for example, versions of Logic or Digital Performer that integrated Finale into these sequencers in ways that go far beyond the capabilities of the setup I described.

  • Stevesong
    I too used finale back in the day it was introduced. I remember bonny J. in Hollywood who had the task of debugging the score programs. She would finish one program and recieve the task to another. Encore for example was an excelent program for the pc platform. I've tried many at that time, including mr. T ect..
    Common sense said finale is the dedicated program that ultimately would take center stage. So I learned it also for future use and on the way to composing. Then I ran into treacherous hurdlles of ease of use, studio dedication, all around familialarity of key commands, and the dreadfull notes lock that made the score look very presentable. I then went back to logic and cannot tell you how easy and accomplished my work flow has been. there is numerous ways of using logic because of its versatilities of the other side of the program, e.g the envirnment,midi,audio. ect..
    My compositions today are in the neighborhood of hundred of pages at a time.
    With full playback, feel, and versatilities of score exstraction. I'm not trying to be a nusense by all means, but i'm greatful to the germans that offer us a real program that can do it all. And a forum to discuss it with. DG is the only man that had the guts to discuss cubases side of score that i know of. I'm not going to repeat it. But am i the only one trying to confirm. Even in a program that i dont even use ? Audible, inaudible notes. Gohst notes, invisible notes ect.. there is no comparising to the publishing printing programs, of what a dedicated studio full sequencing, score program can do with it all. One can also look at the present situation of all the advanced samples out there today. And no one has had the time to create dry samples of true sounding instruments, except VSL. In the world mind you. What do people in the music business do besides try to hit the lottery from day to day. ??????? Anyway thanks for the great info, just to mention.

  • I too continue to hope for some acknowledgement from the VSL team that they think/care about their notation-based users. Like Steve I have been a Finale usere since version 1, and continue to dream of the day when notation software and sample sounds work together (relatively) seamlessly. The combination Finale/Logic/VSL setup that Steve describes is one that I have been using for a number of years, and it works pretty well. I can confirm (so far) that Finale 2007 has fixed the playback problem of 2006. I would also mention that the updated Human Playback features in Finale 2007, which not without difficulties, provide much more refined ways to have Finale automatically assign the proper MIDI commands to Logic/VSL on playback. I have been working both with VSL and VI setups, and both work well. There is a bit of work to set things up, but the combination of Finale/Logic/VSL(VI) is this best it has ever been.

    Michael Matthews

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    @michael.matthews said:

    I too continue to hope for some acknowledgement from the VSL team that they think/care about their notation-based users. Like Steve I have been a Finale usere since version 1, and continue to dream of the day when notation software and sample sounds work together (relatively) seamlessly. The combination Finale/Logic/VSL setup that Steve describes is one that I have been using for a number of years, and it works pretty well. I can confirm (so far) that Finale 2007 has fixed the playback problem of 2006. I would also mention that the updated Human Playback features in Finale 2007, which not without difficulties, provide much more refined ways to have Finale automatically assign the proper MIDI commands to Logic/VSL on playback. I have been working both with VSL and VI setups, and both work well. There is a bit of work to set things up, but the combination of Finale/Logic/VSL(VI) is this best it has ever been.

    Michael Matthews


    That's three of us, Michael. Now we just need to get a couple of hundred thousand more users, and maybe the developers will get the hint!

    Regards,

    Alex.

    [:)]

  • Micheal
    Can I ask you the same question that steve so honestly replied. Why don't you just use the logic score instead. Mind you steve said he had been used to finale from day one and perhaps he did not want to take the learning curve with logic ? If I understood correctly.

    Hang in there alex, this is getting interesting.

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    @R.K. said:

    Micheal
    Can I ask you the same question that steve so honestly replied. Why don't you just use the logic score instead. Mind you steve said he had been used to finale from day one and perhaps he did not want to take the learning curve with logic ? If I understood correctly.

    Hang in there alex, this is getting interesting.


    Yep, I'm hanging.....

    [[:|]]

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    @Lasse78 said:


    Is it possible to play the VI samples or hook up Gigastudio with NOTION?

    As far as I know this is not possible since the user definable options for the NOTION program are extremely deficient so far. (If you like, have a look at http://www.notionmusic.com/downloads/pdf/EMReview.pdf)

  • All in all an interesting discussion so far about the (relative) merits of sequencer vs. notation programs. As I see things, we live basically in different worlds when working – predominantly – either with notation programs or sequencers: Notation means producing scores and parts to be performed by real musicians whereas sequencing is aimed at audio production for film, TV, CD etc. as its final result. Insofar it's no wonder that these worlds are different: Notation programs are deficient when it comes to audio qualities (as needed for audio rendition) and sequencers are weak when it comes to scoring (as needed for musicians, particularly in modern music – not to speak of publishing as sheet music!).

    Nevertheless, future development will necessarily go to include more features from either side – in the end possibly resulting in unified tools for creating music. In my opinion, the NOTION program [rather stupid name for a NOtaTION program!] is on the right track: Everything what you can do in a sequencer is – or should be! – representable and executable with conventional notational symbols and terms as developed over centuries (including ours) of notating music.

    Hansen