@Another User said:

Mostly it will be a melody, but can a Leitmotif be also something non-melodic? I suppose so.

I think the 3-note shark motif from Jaws is a perfect example.
It usually occurs as a two note motif when the precense of the shark is to be underlined, with the third note accenting and propelling at various times (but not always).

It's not a melody, but certainly a 'theme': a leitmotif... a non-melodic one.

I'm not trying to be technical, but that's true what Mathis said about distinguishing melody from theme, etc. A melody, or theme, is like a musical unit that holds together and is expressive in itself. Beyond being just a motif like three notes. Three notes is not a melody. And to some extent film music does not really need themes or melodies. Yes, it can have them, but it does not have to, and it is not better because they are there. There are some scores that go on and on with all sorts of pretty melodies that are completely stupid and worthless. And there are others that have a nearly braindead composer pawing feebly as he drools at a keyboard and it works fine for the scene. Not that it is always that way. But that is the paradox of film music.

As for someone not using a theme and the music being uninteresting - no way. Herrmann is the perfect example. He did not really use themes at all. And his music is the most interesting of all to many people.

@William said:

I'm not trying to be technical, but that's true what Mathis said about distinguishing melody from theme, etc. A melody, or theme, is like a musical unit that holds together and is expressive in itself. Beyond being just a motif like three notes. Three notes is not a melody. And to some extent film music does not really need themes or melodies. Yes, it can have them, but it does not have to, and it is not better because they are there. There are some scores that go on and on with all sorts of pretty melodies that are completely stupid and worthless. And there are others that have a nearly braindead composer pawing feebly as he drools at a keyboard and it works fine for the scene. Not that it is always that way. But that is the paradox of film music.

As for someone not using a theme and the music being uninteresting - no way. Herrmann is the perfect example. He did not really use themes at all. And his music is the most interesting of all to many people.

Thoroughly agree with the sentiments about Hermann, Bill.

This brings up another perspective about theme, melody, etc...
At the beginning of the 19th century, we saw ever more development of a harmonic theme, that is, a less discernible and identifiable melody, and a more pronounced move towards harmonic structure and movement as a 'theme' in its own right. The work of Wagner, Richard Strauss, Holst, etc. ,although identified with a leitmotif structure, did introduce the element of harmony and modulation as more 'melodic', and one could say, more valid, as a 'new device' to supplement melody. Shostakovich too, worked much harmonic 'theme' into his music, although in many cases you'd be hard pressed to extract an indentifiable 'melody.' Mahler was a pretty clever chap at this, relying on harmonic movement to 'carry the piece.'
In relation to film, (IMHO) Hermann could be said to be the 'Beethoven' of the genre, extrapolating from the leitmotif structure, a harmonic and rhythmic density that fit to purpose, and could be identified as 'complete melodic intent', rather than no melody. His work in psycho and vertigo, coupled with his view of image as 'melody', created a new orchestral format if you like: Image 'playing the tune' as if another instrument within an ensemble, and the orchestra backing that 'melody'.

And as mentioned, i think this type of writing is a thin line scenario. It either works or doesn't, and the balance is a lot finer than in other musical genres, as our perception of what is a good score, and what isn't shows.

Interesting discussion.

Regards,

Alex.

Quick deffinitions to help:

Motif: a perceivable or salient recurring fragment or succession of notes that may be used to construct the entirety or parts of complete melodies and themes.

leitmotif: A motif thematically associated with a person, place, or idea

Theme: the initial or primary melody. A motif is a short melodic figure used repeatedly which may be used to construct a theme.

The 1958 Encyclopédie Fasquelle defines a theme as follows:

* "Any element, motif, or small musical piece that has given rise to some variation becomes thereby a theme."

Melody: a series of linear events or a succession, not a simultaneity as in a chord. However, this succession must contain change of some kind and be perceived as a single entity (possibly Gestalt) to be called a melody. Most specifically this includes patterns of changing pitches and durations, while most generally it includes any interacting patterns of changing events or quality.

Quick recap from what I remember from theory: Pitch&Rhythm are the smallest unit of music; Motifs consist of pitch and rhythm, themes are build from motifs. Themes are not neccessarily melodies, but often are melodic in nature. A single melody can consist of more than one theme or thematic element.

I think there is good merit to both "types" of scoring. In general, you should be able to listen to the score and get a good idea of the story or at least the emotional content of the movie. Good film scorers will accomplish this with or without themes, or possibly with cues of both. For example, you can listen to a Williams or Hermann score and get a good understanding of the underlying emotional content (and sometimes the program) of the movie just from that. The most important thing is that the score needs to be a part of the story, not a background for the story. Even without themes, there is almost always solid motivic structure in good scores. Hermann for instance uses a lot of harmonic and rhythmic motifs, but he shys away from constructing leitmotifs or themes. But, when you listen to the shower scene in psycho, for instance, there is a clear harmonic and rhythmic motif being used for that cue. Those elements tie together to make the cue work extremely well, and ultimately a score that is built well will have at least "pockets" of continuity such as this.

Some people are equipped with the intuition that music without melody is without worth, others not.

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@Angelo Clematide said:

Some people are equipped with the intuition that music without melody is without worth, others not.

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It depends on what the piece of music is trying to achieve. It may be filmscore - which is an entirely different species to concert music. The audience - which is what this is all about - has different mind sets for either. Writers like Herrmann, Rozsa and say, Williams on the other hand almost tried to write concert music for film. Great writers, along with Jerry Goldsmith.

Herrmann, in particular, comes across as a composer that accidently wandered into film - when all the time he wanted to be a conductor of concert music out on the tour circuit. That is one of the reasons he's different from the rest.

I get the feeeling that Bernard Herrmann regarded leitmotif wrting as lazy. His way of writing lets an audience know what to feel at any given moment when he was on top form. That sounds easy.

Psycho is not just about great writing. It's about the timing of the 'entry' of the music - which Herrmann was a master at. He could spot a film and tell the director where to cut - he understood the game completely most of the time. A great gift.

A lot of people always think of the music to the shower scene and that's quite natural and understandable because prior to that scene - there was nothing like that sound - or indeed scene, in any film.

I like to recall the driving scene and also the ascending and descending strings when the camera pans over Phoenix. There is a classic example of saying to an audience - things ain't quite right here - there may be a problem.

For leitmotifs - watch LOTR - if you can stand it.

I'm not talking about real music, respectively concert music as you called it. This music is most often not appliable to moving picture. However, i have seen many movie who uses music of old masters in film, for example "Russian Ark" (2002) by Aleksandr Sokurov, i think he used used all the way thru music of old masters.

Leitmotif means to me that a theme is set, may a picturesque one, and later may comes again in variations, as Wagner did, and i.e. movie composers like StarWar Williams also composes. It doesn't matter what the music i for, a Leitmotiv is a Leitmotiv.

I personally enjoy movies with a soundtrack who has melodies, who is like "real" music. A recent good example i liked a lot was "Firelight" (1997) by William Nicholson. The artistry of this movie is a very good example of what kind of films i lke personally. I don't even care watching a movie just for the sole purpose what the uncerscorer did. Most of this action rubbish procuced nowadays, i watch with my son, maybee.

There is plenty of drama who calls for anything else of course. For example a simple progression of chords, quasi non-polyphonic, maybee even homophon and with an absence of a singable theme. Of course, we composers can also sing any voice lead within a progression.

There are endless musical possibilities. A composer who makes music to a premade concept like a movie, needs a huge reservoir from where he can intuitively draw from, instantly. I enjoy it the most when i can compose the music after reading the movie script, talking to the regisseur, and also reading the book from the original author, respectively all together, and never have to watch a single strip, who rather is destructive to my fantasy.

For me all is personal, individual, experience and fun, in other words, I don't give a damn what other composer compose. When i watch a movie for entertainment, it has to be a good one, one i like as well as my wife too.

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There are millions of possibilities, and never the same twice.

what was the titel of the topic again...

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I once had a producer in one of the major music hubs tell me all the songs have been written already. Its all have been done. He also offered me a job, just to clarify that he wasn't trying to get rid of me. But I thought to myself, how easy it is to get in ruts and bog down.

"There are millions of possibilities and never the same twice".

The original Question: Thematic music !

Don't Jaws and psycho have identical motifs ?

I'm not a film composer. But I had a little experiences with it.

Thematic music can also take the role of meloncholy, thus buying the hearts of the watchers. When used in the proper or certain ques, in repetition. It can win an audience of the subject of the film, ( Dances of wolves ) or opposite to melancholy it can show hatred towards a subject. So for example: if you compose a melancholy theme of crazy horse the Indian worrier. And repeat it through out the film, especialy at the end where its obviously there comes an end to him. Then you win the hearts of the audience watching towards "crazy horse". And the composer gets his royalty of the melancholy theme repeated over and over in dollar bills. But if say a decendant of general custer happen to show up in the studio while spotting. Then the director might show a change of heart towards using the final melancholy theme at the end, and wishes the composer to cut his music thus creating tention and havoch towards pay to the composer, politics ect.. jeopardizing everyones job and security.

Thematic music. ther's more to it in real life. This incident actually happened in my presence. And the composer stood his ground with a fit. The tension was so thick, you could cut it with a knife.

I'm going back to my ford falcon and finish composing my string trio. Atleast its safer. Getting new tires tonight. Busy day ahead.

@vibrato said:

So - how important are themes? And what do you guys classify as a theme? I think a theme is not only a melody - but could be a rhythmic gesture, a particular sound - may be electronic...or a arppegio..whatever...

And finally what are your thoughts on repetetion? Thematic repetetion - creating meaning - coherence?

A theme
in music is the initial or primary melody, for example a principal theme in a monothematic piece of music, or main themes of a polythematic composition. After a principal theme, a second theme called countertheme or secondary theme is announced. The Leitmotif is a theme associated to a scene, character, place, or any idea who is associable. A piece of music without themes, is called athematic. Improvisation of variations on a theme is essential in jazz as well in any other music style. Improvisation was the first thing my composition teacher showed me when I was 12 years old. Skilled pianist may have a slight advantage improvising variations on an theme.

Theme and the variation
Variation of the main theme is alteration in form, rhythm, harmony, tonality, timbre, instrumentation, dynamics etc..

Example of a very complex old rhytmic variation technique:
“Four Door” = Playing the same theme in four different speeds and the last note of the fourth theme has to fall on beat one of the form.

Practical example:
1st theme is in eight notes.
2nd theme in triplets.
3rd theme in quintuplets.
4th theme in septuplets. The last note of this 4th repetition falls on beat one of the form.

Theme in movie soundtracks
I think anything musically associable to a particular scene, character, place or visual idea idea in the film can be set as a theme. This can be a single note, short or sustaned, the two notes of an interval played simultanous or succesive and with a specific color, a noise, a percussive hit, a glissando, a flute imitating a nightingale call etc.

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