Question about orchestration

[chemicalseb]

hi everyone,

I've been trying to orchestrate this new piece of mine. The chords and melody are all done. However, since I am not yet a good orchestrator, I am having troubles with my trombone sections and my cellos.

Ok.

I have my 3 trombones playing a C major chord root position going to a Ab major chord 1st inversion. The root of that C major chord being C2 (midi).

G Ab
E Eb
C C

I want my doublebasses to always play the roots of those chords. So they'll play:

C1 Ab1 (reason i did not go up to Ab2 is to sorta respect the common practice rules of basses not jumping higher than a 5th) (but tell me if it's ok to do that)

Now the problem comes with cellos (since i am not yet a good orchestrator).
Should I just double the basses an octave higher? which would overlap the C in the first chord. Or should I divide the cellos in half and play some of the notes played by the trombones?...which would then not require the cellos to always play the roots.


Thanks everyone

[hetoreyn]

Well... I'm not an orchestrator either but I generally use my brass section as I do my violin section.

If I'm duplicating melodies I tend to use:

Violins - Trumpets
Violas - Horns
Celli - Trombones
Double Bass - Tuba

(Of course I realize that they don't have the same range, but sound and dynamic wise they are similar)

It always good to make sure that a melody is actually playable by real musicians. But as I don't have real musicians to worry about (and I wish I did) I just write the parts as I want to hear them. Perhaps someone here with orchestrating experience can tell us more. But I'd say just do it the way you want it.

[hermitage59]

Chem,

What's the next chord after the Ab?

Reason i ask is,
it's entirely possible to play a C in the Bass, and Cellos, for both the C and Ab chords, but the next chord will give a better clue. (Also depends on the context.)

Alex.

[Martin Bayless]

this is an insightful question as it identifies some common misunderstandings. the bass instrument of the string section is the cello. there are exceptions, but the basses are used to add color, depth and, since they are not as adept at playing line, punctuation. modern practices have changed that somewhat, but thinking about basses before cellos can be problematic. so you may try rewriting vn1=soprano, vn2=alto, va=tenor, vc=bass, and add the basses later - only if needed.

the winds are conceptually different and because they differ so much in color, you are likely thinking of them linearly, which is good. the misconception is that they are as homogenous as strings. especially with woodwinds, they don't combine well this way even though their ranges (fl=soprano, ob=viola, cl=tenor, or bn=bass) might suggest. it is better to interlock them when writing homophonically to even out their inconsistencies. which leads to the brass...

yes, they can also be thought in terms of ranges, trp=soprano, hns=alto, tbn=tenor tuba=bass, but as with the similar layout with flutes and oboes above, there is really too much contrast between trumpets and horns to think of writing lines this way. again interlocking is the answer but layering might be a better term.

in other words, think about how the brass section is formed with at least three instruments per section - enough to play a chord. yes, each instrument needs to be voiced differently because of its range, but if you wanted to "bring in the brass," it might be much better to write that (for example) as simply three or four horns each playing a different note of the harmony while the other brass instruments remain silent (or as quietly as they can while working their crossword puzzles :roll[:)]. if you hear trumpets, fine, bring them in too, or have the horns sit out. of course the wall of sound happens when all the brass are playing, which i mention only to point out that that is such a racket that about the only way the strings will be heard if playing is if they are playing a unison line (in their sounding octave). i won't say it never happens, but having all the brass in and the strings playing in harmony is really a deceptive concept, albeit born out of logic. whew sorry to be long winded. necessary to get to your question about trombones.

if you're coming to orchestration from a pop/rock background, then you have an immediate advantage when thinking about trombones. they are the power of the orchestra and are synonomous with power chords on a guitar. think les paul, marshall stack balls to the wall. think about the similar sounding ranges of both those instruments. in fact one prominent orchestrator has dealt with his orchestral budget by omitting two string players in favor of two extra bass trombones. heresy i know, but his observation that even bass trombones sound too different than tenor trombones is insightful. further, his practice of writing closed voice chords in low registers (it works!) speaks to the value of having an entire bass trombone section in an our-amps-go-to-eleven kind of way. good old nigel...

[Martin Bayless]

after rereading your post, i wouldn't have the slightest hesitation having the bass line (cellos [:D]) jump beyond a fifth if it sounds good. its important to remember that part writing rules came into being via vocal writing, and that things that don't sound right with the voice (parallel fifths for example) sound great in the orchestra.

As far as divisii goes, it is better not to use it if it can be avoided, especially - and said in the strongest possible terms - as a fix for part writing. if needed for an overall concept, great, but doing it sporadically just upsets the natural balance of the orchestra.

[chemicalseb]

Thank you everyone for your help.

After my C Ab i go back to C but i have other chords later on which are (not in order) Bb, Eb, Db, F.

I was told by a friend to use the tuba only in legato passages, as it rounds the sound a lot. Since the piece I am working on has a more heroic theme, I took out the tuba. Good advice?

[mathis]

Why don't you just try it out? I mean, the great thing with samples is, that you can experiment. And what sounds right, is right, right?
If it sounds too heroic, kick it out, if it sounds great, let it play.

[dpcon]

@mathis said:

Why don't you just try it out? I mean, the great thing with samples is, that you can experiment. And what sounds right, is right, right?
If it sounds too heroic, kick it out, if it sounds great, let it play.

Exactly. You will find that different things work but some things work better or worse depending on the context. Using samples should tell you if somethings is awkward (not working) as long as you maintain real world volume relationships. A simple rule to remember is that each instrument group should sound well in itself. So if you play the strings only and it sounds solid and makes sense than you're okay. Then play the Bones and see if they work by themselves and so on.

I found myself reading Martin's post a few times as it contains very insighful information.

[chemicalseb]

thank you all,

I will try different configurations.
I will keep you guys posted on which seemed to work better.

Then I'll probably post an audio sample of it.

[Angelo Clematide]

this trb/vlc/cb voice leading should sounds good:

trb
G2 > Ab2
E2 > Eb2
C2 > C2

vlc
G1 > Ab1

cb
C1 > Ab0

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Best Regards

your Gustav Mahler

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