Nick, would this help the multiple Mac setup any? I'm still trying to figure out what it is...connection wise...


http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony.php


Tom

That's likely to be a nice audio interface when it comes out, sure.

[edit] When I first heard about that card at NAMM, it sounded like it's only for connecting to Apogee's converters, i.e. it doesn't have AES/EBU or S/PDIF I/O. Looking at it now, that may not be the case - it might have lots of standard digital inputs. The bumph is a little ambiguous:

"Symphony features 32 channels of digital I/O on a single PCI-Express card format. With support for sample rates up to 192 kHz, Symphony can be used as a digital router or patch-bay when connected to external converters or other digital outboard equipment. Software drivers for Symphony feature extensive routing capabilities and very low latency performance making very high channel, high quality native recording with Apogee converters a reality."

Nowhere does it mention AES/EBU or any standard format, so I'm inclined to think it's a card for their interfaces.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Translation: the way to do it is to put a FireWire interface on each slave, and a MOTU or RME card that accepts multiple lightpipes on your sequencing DAW.

If the mac mini's already have a coreaudio-capable digital output, why do you suggest we need an additional firewire interface on each server? What we need is simply a soundcard on the main DAW that will accept multiple digital inputs (asynchronous).

That, or a small box that will merge several optical inputs into one. Like this: www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/3842 except, this one accepts AES rather than optical (shame!). I'm sure we can find a box that merges asynchronous optical signals though.

Leon,

I've been searching high and low for a box that accepts 16 spdif litepipe in / outs and "merges" them into 2 sets of ADAT litepipe that would then feed into a RME hammerfall card that is on the main DAW machine....

SvK

ps: I can't believe how much polyphony you can throw at the 2gig MINImac...it's crazy...EVEN on fast passages with release samples on!!

wow.......best purchase I've made...next week, I'll buy another

I tried wormhole2 ...it is sloppy .....Built-in opticals are almost instant in comparison....

SvK

Hey Nick,

That's good to know, actually. I've been back and forth on whether to include a hardware mixer in my setup. I've been looking at the ProjectMix from m-audio. I don't really like their stuff, but that looks handy, being a mixer and control surface.

But now that I've got my first taste of the VIs, it looks like most of money is going to be going on the slow process of reaching the Symphonic Cube!

(Though I have to admit, the prospects of Minis are looking very tempting! I suppose the MacBook would be similar? I could use a laptop, and if Mactels are that hot for VIs, it would be a great step.)

J.

SvK, have you tried reducing the latency slider in wormhole?

Also, what about kontakt 2, how does that perform in terms of streaming? (if you use k2)

@Another User said:

If the mac mini's already have a coreaudio-capable digital output, why do you suggest we need an additional firewire interface on each server? What we need is simply a soundcard on the main DAW that will accept multiple digital inputs (asynchronous).

That's all *you* need. We real men and women with gold chains hanging in our hairy chests need more than two outputs.

The other issue is that I don't know of any sound cards with lots of asynchronous S/PDIF inputs other than Pro Tools HD. But that doesn't mean one doesn't exist, just that i haven't heard of it.

Guys,

check this out...


http://www.esi-pro.com/viewProduct.php?pid=11&page=1

hmmmm [;)]

SvK

@svonkampen said:

Guys,

check this out...


http://www.esi-pro.com/viewProduct.php?pid=11&page=1

hmmmm [;)]

SvK

I do have a MOTU 828 Mark 1 that can accept SPDIF /ADAT In out.

Is the simplest option to plug an optical cable into the 828 and Mac Mini?
Would the following be a suitable cable considering the connection on the Mac Mini?

http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/xpresscable/



Then forgive my ignorance but what would need setting to clock the Mac Mini to the 828?


So what advantage might there be for the USB to ADAT connector? Would the Mac Mini be able to see more channels of Audio when plugged into an 828 or equivalent?


I would run Midi over LAN and Plogue Bidule.

@Earlier I said:

I do have a MOTU 828 Mark 1 that can accept SPDIF /ADAT In out.

I also have a Metric Halo ULN2 but that only has SPDIF electrical In/Out.
I could run a second Mac Mini into this but I would need to get from optical to electrical. I would need a converter such as:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?TabID=1&criteria=usb&ModuleNo=29293&doy=search&C=SEO&U=Strat15">http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?TabID=1&criteria=usb&ModuleNo=29293&doy=search&C=SEO&U=Strat15

Is this likely to work - again are there clocking issues re latency or does the digital connection set it all up correctly and what settings in the Mac Mini have to be made?

Assuming you could could get AUNetsend/Receive to work with acceptable latency, you would still need to clock both machines together. The reason is that even if the latency starts out okay, without this connection it drifts, and by half an hour the latency can be three seconds: play a note and hear it three seconds later. Not useful.

In other words, AUNetsend/Receive doesn't seem to clock to the ethernet port the way FX-Teleport does on Windows machines; the only digital connection to a Mac Mini without an audio interface on it is the TOSlink (optical S/PDIF) port, so that's what you have to use.

If you have two audio interaces - FireWire or otherwise - you don't need to mess around with TOSlink for sync. But you do also need digital sync, of course - any time you have two digital devices, they have to be clocked togeter. You can use the embedded clock in the digital datastream, but you get lower jitter if you run a separate wired run (either word clock or an S/PDIF or AES/EBU run just being used for clock and not audio). It's not a good idea to use optical cable for sync - the jitter is pretty high. (ADATs used a separate 9-pin connection for sync - they just used the lightpipe for audio.)

You're using the same kind of sync, but my guess is that audio-over-ethernet doesn't have the same jitter issues as standard digital transfers.

Finally, I believe that Digital Performer has an option to clock to ethernet, so you wouldn't need the TOSlink connection with a Mac Mini. However, it doesn't support AUNetsend/Receive, so we're back where we started.

Bottom line, I still haven't been convinced that audio-over-ethernet is a viable solution for Macs yet. But I'm sure it will be sooner than later.

Nick...and others...

What is Nuendos VST System Link? I read about it but I still don't get what it is...just sounds like hooking the CPUS together as one might anyway, each CPU having an audio card on it.

Is it additional software or something?


I'm thinking of starting with one Mac Mini to go with my host G5.Is there a consensus on the smartest way to do this?

Tom

I hadn't heard of the Gigaport DG (USB->ADAT interface). The only problem (other than the lack of clock input) is that it only passes 16 bits. Gong.

Tom, VST system link carries sync, transport, and MIDI over an audio channel (or is it one bit of the audio stream? I forget). I think it's a little long in the tooth today.

Nick I'll check further into System Link.

Otherwise, as far as free standing firewire interfaces, I guess this little M Audio thing is the cheapest way to go...
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FireWire1814-main.html

You think?

Tom

Probably, although there are others I'd consider as well. If you go to an online retailer you'll see what's out there.

I personally would just buy a used MOTU 828 - the original one - for $250 on ebay.

Hey Nick, you seem to be the man with the sync knowledge.

I've got a single Mac/PC setup now, and I'm thinking of adding in a MacBook to get a little more love going on with the VIs (not to mention having a laptop fot eh first time in my life!). The hardware right now is:

1) Mac G5 dual 1.8: RME DIGI 96/8 PAD
2) PC P4 2.8: older RME DIGI 9636/52

What I'm wondering is whether I could get another optical connection for the MacBook by creating an Aggregate device integrating the built-in toslink on the G5 with the 96/8? If the 96/8 remains Master, will the MacBook get any sync info at all? My guess is "no", because it's not, in any physical way, connected to the Master optical device. Is that right, or can the Aggregate device somehow take care of the sync inside the Mac???

I guess the other option would be to run the MacBook into the ADAT1 SPDIF connection on the 9636/52, but that's a bit of a drag, since the PC is only on for larger arrangements.

Any thoughts?

J.

I'd like to be all puffed about about being The Man, but it's actually very simple. Thanks though. [:)]

Yes, you're on the right track. An aggregate device won't magically provide sync, it'll just make the Mac treat two or more audio systems as one composite device as far as the ins and outs are concerned.

I'm not going to brave that totally unreadable RME site to find out whether it can resync incoming digital audio to its own clock - a feature called "asynchronous" sync - and even if it can accept optical S/PDIF (which is different from ADAT lightpipe even though the cables are the same). But if it can, that's one solution.

A simpler solution would be just to connect TOSlink cables back and forth between the G5 and Mac Mini. On the Mini, go into Audio MIDI Setup and put it on digital sync.

Okay, I'm a little confused.

I'm thinking about how to connect another device, i.e., a MacBook. I can see that making a full "circuit" (for lack of a better word) connecting the MacBook to the G5 would theoretically enable the sync, but I know that in the Aggregate Device setup you need to tell it which device is the sync Master. That's where I'm a little unclear. If the DIGI 96/8 is the Master, will a MacBook connected to the built-in toslink get a sync? I mean, it's not actually the same device.

Don't know if the old 9636/52 supports asynchronous, but I do know that ADAT1 will also support SPDIF. That should do to link the MacBook, shouldn't it? I'll look into asynchronous support.

Thanks for the help.

J.

That's a very interesting question, and I don't know the answer. Maybe the Mac does pass clock from the source to all the other devices.

in any case, the point isn't a "full circle" between the master and slave computers, it's that the master comp is sending the slave digital clock to use so the slave is in sync with the rest of your rig. In this set-up the embedded clock in the datastream coming out of the slave is ignored by the receiving device, whether it's the RME card or the master computer. (All digital audio streams contain clock, but you don't have to use it.)

Also note that this isn't ideal from an audiophile standpoint. Optical cables aren't very good clock carriers - they tend to get audibly jittery, especially over longer runs. But that's the only way you can clock the built-in audio in the Mac Mini.

Thanks Nick,

I noticed today that the Universal Binary version of MaxMSP has been released as a public beta. This is a big factor also in my urge to get a MacBook, so maybe I'll be figuring this whole thing out for real... sooner, rather than later!

I realize it's best to have a dedicated sync. The RME cards can be connected easily, I just need to add-on wordclock card for the 96/8. The MacBook would be a different deal though. I actually don't mind just running analog in for monitoring purposes, then bouncing and importint. Not ideal, but hey, how much time and money do we really have to spend before we reach the "ideal"? [;)]

J.