Hi Wiliam, nice to read your post. Interesting subject [[;)]]

The contrabass saxophones I did see live and in pictures, went only to low B natural (written), and not Bb as other saxophones normally do. This would be D natural (0 VSL), because the Instrument is in Eb -Soprano=Bb / Alto=Eb / Tenor=Bb / Bariton=Eb / Bass =Bb / Contrabass = Eb -. But of course it is not excluded that there are some in existence build to go down to Bb.

Iwan

Thanks for that info, Iwan.

Now what we need to do is have you go out and get one, then sample it for Herb complete with tenderly expressive legato performances.

Hi William,

if you want to share the picture of your grandfather's band, please e-mail it to me (s.tucmandl@vsl.co.at) and we'll post it on this forum.
I'd love to see it [:D] and I'm pretty sure others also would..

sabine

@William said:

Actually, I found it in my Forsyth book - the contra bass is an e flat, tranposed two octaves and a major sixth down, so with the uniform range of the saxes starting at b flat below middle c it would make its lowest note the lowest d flat on the piano.

Hmm...

I just looked in the Forysth book and didn't see anywhere a mention of contrabass saxophone's sounding range, though you're probably right. Seems strange that he'd mention it in the middle of the book, but not put a referrence point of its range in the chart in the beginning.

I guess he didn't list the ranges in the chart because the contrabass is as he put it a "workshop curiosity." I only found the contrabass on a list below the other saxes, in e flat, and just assumed the standard written range of bflat (or b natural as Iwan pointed out) below the staff to e flat (or a few semitones higher) above the staff as well as the implied transposition below the b flat bass.

Forsyth also mentions that the entire range of saxes is duplicated in c and f versions for "orchestral" use, I believe mainly in France. I have no idea of whether saxes in France right now are more commonly in the flat keys as in America. Iwan would know this. I wonder if those saxes had a difference in tone analogous to the difference in timbre between the b flat and a clarinets.

Not having heard one, I'm wondering also if the sopranino is at all similar to the small e flat clarinet in its piercing effect. The soprano is very mellow and exotic sounding at times, but the sopranino must have a very different sound.

i've been asked to post this wonderfull historical document - here it is
http://www.vsl.co.at/upload/forum/saxband0011.jpg">

Going back to your initial point adding saxophone to an orchestra isn't that pretty much the Broadway\ Vegas type orchestra? A hybrid of a big band and an orchestra. Mind you the sections aren't as big but they have a bit of everything.

I remember reading amazing stories like that in Quincy Jones biography where he talks about how arranging was a true art in the heyday of big bands.

Quote from p.100
Why did Billy Strayhorn put the baritone sax part above the second tenor sax?
Why do brass in buckets and four unison C flutes doubling a top line accompaniment give the aural illusion of strings?
Why does the combination of four alto flutes, four French Horns, four flugelhorns, four trombones and a tuba blend so naturally.

I mean who can experiment with that kind of stuff today?

You're right about the similarity to various pop orchestras. I was talking about using the saxes in classical scores - one example is Vaughn Williams in his Ninth symphony using three saxophones ( though they were more like a concertino and used as a soloistic group), but arrangers from the "show" and popular orchestras already do it on a normal basis. I remember buying orchestral score paper with a quartet of saxes in the middle, obviously for show orchestras.

Quincy Jones is a fantastic composer, and one of the best orchestrators, and he used things like what you're talking about brilliantly. Also, to get off the subject somewhat, think of the use of the c bass flute by Mancini. This beautiful and difficult-to-play instrument is practically unheard of in classical orchestras, but became a prominent solo voice in many tv and pop scores in the 1950s and 60s. I knew a composer who did arranging in the fifties on a lot of studio things, and he would talkabout liking to use a quartet of flutes consisting of c bass flute, alto flute and two c flutes.

Okay I see what you mean. My guess is the saxophone has only been considered a serious instrument not that long ago (even then some people refuse to see that ) since it was invented much later than the other classical instrument. It takes a while to have enough of a tradition and a universal appeal to be included in the classical orchestra. Of course we're beyond that today, but such tradition is hard to change. Too bad because the sax family is just about versatile and agile as the string section.
Did Ravel use saxophone other than in the Bolero?

I too love the bass flute! And thanks to sample libraries now this challenging instrument is available at your finger tips! Mancini did some cool stuff indeed, I did check out his book to study his style as a student. The whole Space Age music era was absolute arranging and orchestration galore!
Off topic here, is there a musical saw in the Pro Edition?

Marc,

Ravel did also use the (Eb alto) saxophone as a solo instrument in his orchestration of Musorgsky's "Picture of an Exhibition".

Among the composers which did use the saxophone in classical music are: Bizet,Ravel, Prokofieff, Bartok, Richard Strauss, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Stravinsky, Kodaly, Puccini (yes, believe it or not), Bernstein, Copland, Berio, Boulez, Zimmerman, Webern, Berg and some others. I do have a complete List somewhere....

Among composers which did use it as a solo instrument are: Jacques Ibert, Claude Debussy, Alexander Glazunov, Frank Martin, Heitor Villa Lobos, Luciano Berio, Philipp Glass and about 10000 others less famous ones.

Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

Thanks for that information Iwan. I guess I should add that the old picture is of a saxophone band my grandfather Carl Campbell was in from Nowata Oklahoma, a very small town, that toured the East coast USA around 1918.