I care about eking the best sound quality I can out of my system, but I'm not here to proselytize. Jitter, shmitter - as long as you love your mother...

In theory you won't hear the jitter once you bounce anyway, so if you believe the theory - and I don't, based on nerdfests with several people in severe need of a life spending a few hours listening to this stuff - then it doesn't matter to you anyway.

Plus it looks like I'm not clear on your set-up. If you have an MH box, that's not as bad. I thought you only had a second Mac and no hardware.

dpcon....yeah

SvK

Nic DPcon,

I apologize....I'm being defensive....forgive me [;)]

Here is the deal.....

I have a ULN-2 Metric Halo as the main i/0 on my main G5....It's IS the clock.......however.......the Optical SpDIF on the ULN/2 is already being used by my Lexi PCM 91......so I used aggregate device to include the digital built-ins on the G5's.......since I am using in/out AND out/in on both G5's the clock of the Metric Halo is being recieved by the slave MAC.

SvK

Audio Quality is very important to me........

I also have 2 "Gold Channels", which consist of 2 vintech X73 neve clone pre-amps with EQ, followed by 2 re-issue black face 1176's. I also run 2 channels of Chandler's "Abbey Road" re-issues. The Pre's and the limiter (tG series)

(getting sick of not owning a proper stereo 1176 though) [;)]

SvK


BTW: OFFTOPIC just have to share.....If you run the harp samples from VSL through Guitar Distortion you can clone that "Once Upon A Time In The West" gutar sound from Ennio Morriccone perfectly.

svk,

No problem at all. As I said I'm very interested in this setup because I plan on doing something like it. Very soon after you posted I began thinking about clocking and I now know how your doing it. Not sure what I'll do but it's nice to know what the options are and what people are using with success. Your enthusiasm is very apprectiated as are your detailed posts.

Don't pay too much attention to Nick, he's a deeply troubled man who happens to be the founder and editor of the best magazine on VI's et. al., Virtual Instruments Magazine which is a must read for people like us.

@dpcon said:

I've never heard what a lightpipe connection sounds like when the lightpipe itself is transmitting the clock.

I spent years working on 02r's (and subsequent 96's and DM2000) and often ended up clocking the whole room to a lightpipe source.

Clocking -
We once hosted a blind listening test comparing digital clocking sources.
Basically Big Ben vs. adat/da88 as a clock master.

The result was no consistant winner and in fact we could not get a consensus.
Until I told everyone which was which.
I kept the Big Ben (as I am indeed a complete audio weenie) but for anything less that critical live recording clocking is an over rated issue imho.

Unless you are getting clicks and pops!

@Another User said:

since I am using in/out AND out/in on both G5's the clock of the Metric Halo is being recieved by the slave MAC.

Whether that's really what happens is an interesting question. I wouldn't assume that it is, but who knows. It might be an asynchronous connection, i.e. the Mac might convert the SR. Not important, though.

Ed, whether you hear a difference in clocking set-ups depends entirely on the specific equipment - whether it has a PLL or double PLL, etc. If you listen to Bob Katz (no, I'm not one of those people who points everyone to his website to end every discussion about digital audio, although he is obviously not just some casual guy [:)] ) there's something wrong with anything that sounds better with external clock and you should complain to the manufacturer; a clock itself doesn't have a sound of its own.

However, I can say beyond a doubt that when I was using the Digidesign 888 and 888/24, using *any* external clock made a noticeable improvement - regardless of whether the clock came from a cheap box. And when i was using a digital mixer in my rig, the best-sounding set-up was when I used distributed clock, again regardless of the box.

Likewise, a good friend of mine who uses MOTU gear says the Big Ben makes a difference even his untrained wife can hear immediately. So I guess it all depends.

In any case, I can hear the difference on some material when I use the embedded clock in a lightpipe, especially over longer runs (> 3 ft. or so). But since jitter supposedly only affects converters (again, I know that's not 100% true), meaning the transfer either succeeds or fails, it's only while you're monitoring that you can hear the jitter. Supposedly.

Note that jitter is just a subtlety, while clicks and pops are a sign that something is broken. Ed obviously knows that, but...

@svonkampen said:

ok there AudioPhiles,


If I sent you a bounce from the litepipes......and a bounce straight from the G5 .......i say you will not be able to tell the difference....and if your ears can't hear it, it's good enough.....


I know ...you guys are all gonna jump on me for this.........but at some point good enough, really IS good enough.....

jitter, schmitter...it's fine.

SvK

Hi SvK,

I tried your setup with a second G5 and I apreciate that you shared it with us. When you come to Cologne I´ll buy you a drink.
But!: In my test there where audible jitter sounds in the transmitting lightpipe.
I´m not an Audiophile, but the Quality of the built in Audiocard seems to be poor.
When playing more notes in an opended plug in (not only VI also Real guitar) the Qualitiy becomes worse.
(Is it an audiocard issue or an problem of plogue bildule?)
I assume, that if I connect a professional Audiocard it will sound ok.
So far the Audioquality in my test is not acceptable.
Has anyone experienced any bettter?

Best regards Oliver Heuss

Oliver,

It would be hard for me to trouble shoot your jitters,
I myself am not getting any.

However, I did a have a midi-loop when I first rigged the ethernet, which was causing ungodly cracks, pops, and stutters....until I made that transormer-object in Logic7 set to filter matching-events...

After I figured that out, all my popping went away...

Also have you made sure that Plogue is set to a buffer-size of 512? I think it defaults to much lower, which Samplers don't like, this would explain why the quality gets worse as you play more notes.

Svk

Oliver ....one more thing......

My main G5 (the one running the DAW) DOES have a fire-wire Audio Interface (metric-halo ULN-2).

It is only the 2nd Slave G5 that does NOT have an Audio Interface.......

The clock on my Metric halo is what drives the setup. Make sure you have 2 litepie cables coming and going from the 2nd G5....other wise it will NOT recieve a clock.

SvK

Dear SvK,

I did have two litepipe cables and a RME card as aclock master in my main G5, but the piont with the Plogue Bidule Buffer is a good one. I will check this out when I have time to set up a test again and I will let you know.

Thanx and best

Oliver

Oliver...


yeaahhh let me know ;_0

biss spaeter alter.....trink ein Koelsch fur mich.

SvK

This is the work around for Apples "Distributed Audio Processing" limitations I have been looking for!
Thank you for sharing the information.
Regards,
Stephen W. Beatty

Hi Everyone!!!

I have been reading this link and am interested in SvK's "No Latency" Digital setup.

I've got a couple of questions for him but anyone else who wants to chip in....please feel free [:)]

1.) I use as my DAW LOGIC 7.2 on a G5 2.5 DP (4.5 Gig Ram). I also have a slave PC on which I run GS3. Both machines have Digital RME cards in them and 16 outputs from the PC is run via 2 lightpipes into my G5. These 16 channels then show up in my mixer in L7. (MIDI runs thru a Unitor 8 MK2 at moment - got to get the Ethernet MIDI sorted out)

Now, correct me if I am wrong - when I play the GS3 I am subject to the latency of my G5 soundcard preferences (say 256) plus the latency of the PC settings (say 256). The higher I put either buffer up - the more latency I get.... So.....I experience "latency" here - I can keep it to acceptable levels by keeping the buffers trimmed down - but latency is present none the less....

Q...Is this what you mean by "no latency" (ie tolerable levels as long as you keep the the buffer sizes down) or am I being REAAALLLLLY dumb here and missing something really fundamental!??!?!?! - In which case SHAME ON ME [:O]ops:

and 2.) I notice that also with SvK's setup - you have a large amount of RAM in your first G5 - and I seem to be only able to get Logic to see just under 4GB of RAM in my system.....

so Q... Do you have access to 7 GB RAM from WITHIN Logic, and is this down to your machine being a QUAD? OR is Logic only seeing 4GB and you have other apps like Melodyne, Reason etc that use the additional 3 GB???

I am thinking of getting a second or even third G5 for the VI's and going down the YAMAHA 02R route to sum it all together via light pipe.....but this post caught my eye and I just wanted some clarification if you have time......

As I said - anyone else please chime in and tell me I am being a DOOFUS if I have this totally wrong....and finally - I am not new to VSL Library but new on the Forum so look forward to checking in with you guys often!!

thanks...... over to you.....

PaulM

You're not being a dufus.

I believe your RME card has onboard "no-latency" digital monitoring, so the latency is only going to be GS3's plus the RME converter latency (probably an additional 2-2.5ms). In other words, the RME card has a built-in digital monitor mixer, just like the MOTU hardware does. It's only when you route the external computer through Logic that you get an additional machine's delay.

You don't need an 02R, since your G5 is functioning as the mixer, but you can certainly use a digital mixer as well if you want to. I personally got rid of mine (a Panasonic DA7) a couple of years ago and haven't looked back. The DA7 is an excellent board - I just didn't need a mixer.

G5s can access a theoretical 4GB per program (about 3GB in reality) regardless of whether they're quads or not.

Thanks Nick,

Thanks for your post -

As far as the buss routing G5 is concerned, that is exactly what I figured - the thing that has thrown me is that SvK has his 2nd G5 coming thru the AUX channel WITHIN LOGIC on the Master Machine....therefore hitting his sound card and getting the additional latency. I also get that routing it directly thru the RME DSP mixer to the stereo buss gets a latency free signal (except for the 2nd G5 - or in my case the G3 PC) - but I can kiss goodbye to automation/eq/aux's/groups/ etc etc....right?

Not a viable solution for me anyway.

And with regard to the 02R - if I have 2 or 3 G5's and my PC G3 - I think I am going to need some kind of digital summing buss with each machine capable of throwing out upto 24 channels (RME 9652 card). I dont think RME have an 'in the box' 96 channel solution for G5's?? Not that I will use them all - but never the less having the option is good for those 'MONSTER MIXES!!!'....

I presume you do not have the need for more than 24 external channels bussed into your host DAW computer as you sold your mixer?

Also I am sure I saw on a post that SvK got access to more than 4GB of RAM - even though I "KNOW" this is how many all my collegues get - just curious if he has 'THE SPECIAL ONE' [;)]

HELLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SvKKKKKKKK............ARRRRRRRRE YYYOOOOOUUUUUUU REEEECIEEEEEEVVVVVINNNNNNGGGGGG MEEEEEEEEEEEE....... OVEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[voice dies off into reverb as if in deep space...........]

Paul...


Yes you have some tolerable, latency.....
Regarding memory...

Logic accesses aboout 3.8 RAM (old EXS24 VSL library....VI AU instances work differently, they access Their OWN circa 3.8 gig OF RAM, even when launched as a n AUplug in L7(when you launch a VI in Logic, it opens another programm called VSL-server and the memory goes there)....that is why it is called VSL-server.

SvK

So memory recap:

Logic 7 3.8Gig RAM for EXS / KONTAKT / HALION (this memory gets used by Logic)
3.8Gig RAM forsr VI's (the NEW Library dsoes NOT use Logic's available memory...it uses memory allocated to VSL-server)


You see on a G% the memory cap is 3.8 Gig per APP.......Logic is one App and VSL-server is another.

SvK

SvK

GOT IT!

I thought I was going mad - but as I am taking delivery of the VI's tomorrow - I didn't know about the seperate app.....

So basically if I load up my G5 #1 with 8GB of RAM - 3.8GB maximum can be accessed by VSL app and 3.8GB by other plugs within L7.

....and just to be clear if you install Bidule Plogue onto your G5#2 (as you have) when you launch the Vienna Instruments it launches the VSL server app and accesses, again, a maximum of approx 3.8 GB of RAM on that machine - and you use G5#2 like a virtual rack.

GENIUS!

Thanks for that [:)]

......Now where is my credit card.........!!!

PaulM

Paul,

That's it....

SvK

@svonkampen said:

So memory recap:

Logic 7 3.8Gig RAM for EXS / KONTAKT / HALION

Sorry, about to go off topic here but I'll try and make it brief...

SvK are you using Halion within Logic? Are you using a wrapper for this - Plogue again?

I just wonder because I'm constantly switching between Cubase and Logic and much of my sample library is in Halion but although Steinberg have an AU plug of it now, it won't load any patches/samples when used within Logic!!! That's useful!

I've just downloaded the Plogue demo but it's standalone only and want to be sure it will work as a Halion wrapper before I make the purchase.

Many thanks.

Colin