@clarkcontrol said:

SvK,

Very exciting what you have figured out here! Thanks for sharing the good news.

If one were to use audio interfaces could they use more than two G5's? Of course this means you're buying extra hardware but then you would also have multiple audio channels...

Clark

Or......
It could be worth experiementing with an optical daisy chain.

Master out to slave 1 in.
Slave 1 out to slave 2 in.
Slave 2 out to slave 3 in.
Slave 3 out to Master in.

Given SVK has already indicated there's no latency to speak of, maybe this would work? It would be worth setting the master as clock, and have the slaves sync to that.

Or, do the same thing, and with optical Gigabit ethernet cards (allegedly able to transfer 1000mbs) in each machine all connected to an GB ethernet switch.
(I've seen three in sites whilst researching a network setup, and have been surprised just how little they cost. And of course, not confusing switches with hubs)


It would be worth going to the Euphonix website, and checking out their network diagrams for some other possibilities.
And the controllers are worth looking at too!
(Two vids to see, with Steve Tucher using an MC controller at home, and John Ross sitting in a mixing barn with the full System MC 5 laid out in a row. Definitely worth a look.)

Interesting developments here.

Alex.

Clarkcontrol,

Sure....all you need is some PCI-Card or Firewire Interface with multiple....spdif optical ins and outs


BTW...many have been asking me: "Why the digital from main G5 to SlaveG5?"....well until i hooked that up, i was getting clicks and break-up...so i figured it was clock noise so i rigged that 2nd optical and everything was gravy.

SvK

I'm glad this is working for your application and don't want to be negative, but it's also worth pointing out the limitations of this set-up.

First, apart from having only two outputs, clocking with the Mac's internal audio *and* using lightpipe (a very jittery clock carrier) isn't an audiophile solution. Second, this is only good for two G5s - as soon as you add another Mac or PC, you need sound cards on all the machines.

Finally, Network MIDI is only between G5s running 10.4. I use MIDI Over LAN since it works with PCs as well.

However, as I've posted before, I'm using the digital output of a slave 2x2 as a temporary solution. I've converted its optical S/PDIF to RCA and plugged it into a MOTU box just like all my other machines.

What I wish is that AUNetsend/Receive were fixed, or better yet that Max would finish FX-Teleport for Mac. That would allow a slave Mac to fit in without any hardware at all.

Yeah very good points by Nick. In fact I didn't read past the clock issue ( been thinking about that with this setup) because I realized it must be very solid which will require a quality card. At least midi should be no problem so you can save few bucks there

ok there AudioPhiles,


If I sent you a bounce from the litepipes......and a bounce straight from the G5 .......i say you will not be able to tell the difference....and if your ears can't hear it, it's good enough.....


I know ...you guys are all gonna jump on me for this.........but at some point good enough, really IS good enough.....

jitter, schmitter...it's fine.

SvK

I used to have a room full of EMU4....they were all ADAT litepiped...the scores sounded great.....

but i will concede that if we were to analyse the files ....I'm sure the direct bounce (no pipes)....will be superior, but your ears will not hear it..

SvK

I worked with an engineer once who had to have absolute 0 vu on all his tracks.. 2 -24 tracks with Dolby SR. His productions were clean and had NO dynamic range. So much for Audiophile. I cannot hear the difference between a $ 1000 amp and a 10 thousand dollar one. Except that the more expensive one heats up the entire room. Same with jitter I can't hear it. Yet all these companies want us to spend spend spend.

I don't know about actually hearing jitter but I can hear insufficient clocking without any trouble because it's so pronounced. It just depends on the actual sound. I've never heard what a lightpipe connection sounds like when the lightpipe itself is transmitting the clock. My clocking is all BNC connections to an Aardvark.

dpcon


My Metric Halo Mobile i/o is sending the clock to the 2nd G5


So my main Audio I/O is the master clock
So the 2nd G5 is recieving the clock from my Metric Halo

SvK

That's a nice piece. So the 2nd G5 is getting clock from the Metric Halo via lightpipe with the Metric Halo as the clock source for your whole setup?

I care about eking the best sound quality I can out of my system, but I'm not here to proselytize. Jitter, shmitter - as long as you love your mother...

In theory you won't hear the jitter once you bounce anyway, so if you believe the theory - and I don't, based on nerdfests with several people in severe need of a life spending a few hours listening to this stuff - then it doesn't matter to you anyway.

Plus it looks like I'm not clear on your set-up. If you have an MH box, that's not as bad. I thought you only had a second Mac and no hardware.

dpcon....yeah

SvK

Nic DPcon,

I apologize....I'm being defensive....forgive me [;)]

Here is the deal.....

I have a ULN-2 Metric Halo as the main i/0 on my main G5....It's IS the clock.......however.......the Optical SpDIF on the ULN/2 is already being used by my Lexi PCM 91......so I used aggregate device to include the digital built-ins on the G5's.......since I am using in/out AND out/in on both G5's the clock of the Metric Halo is being recieved by the slave MAC.

SvK

Audio Quality is very important to me........

I also have 2 "Gold Channels", which consist of 2 vintech X73 neve clone pre-amps with EQ, followed by 2 re-issue black face 1176's. I also run 2 channels of Chandler's "Abbey Road" re-issues. The Pre's and the limiter (tG series)

(getting sick of not owning a proper stereo 1176 though) [;)]

SvK


BTW: OFFTOPIC just have to share.....If you run the harp samples from VSL through Guitar Distortion you can clone that "Once Upon A Time In The West" gutar sound from Ennio Morriccone perfectly.

svk,

No problem at all. As I said I'm very interested in this setup because I plan on doing something like it. Very soon after you posted I began thinking about clocking and I now know how your doing it. Not sure what I'll do but it's nice to know what the options are and what people are using with success. Your enthusiasm is very apprectiated as are your detailed posts.

Don't pay too much attention to Nick, he's a deeply troubled man who happens to be the founder and editor of the best magazine on VI's et. al., Virtual Instruments Magazine which is a must read for people like us.

@dpcon said:

I've never heard what a lightpipe connection sounds like when the lightpipe itself is transmitting the clock.

I spent years working on 02r's (and subsequent 96's and DM2000) and often ended up clocking the whole room to a lightpipe source.

Clocking -
We once hosted a blind listening test comparing digital clocking sources.
Basically Big Ben vs. adat/da88 as a clock master.

The result was no consistant winner and in fact we could not get a consensus.
Until I told everyone which was which.
I kept the Big Ben (as I am indeed a complete audio weenie) but for anything less that critical live recording clocking is an over rated issue imho.

Unless you are getting clicks and pops!

@Another User said:

since I am using in/out AND out/in on both G5's the clock of the Metric Halo is being recieved by the slave MAC.

Whether that's really what happens is an interesting question. I wouldn't assume that it is, but who knows. It might be an asynchronous connection, i.e. the Mac might convert the SR. Not important, though.

Ed, whether you hear a difference in clocking set-ups depends entirely on the specific equipment - whether it has a PLL or double PLL, etc. If you listen to Bob Katz (no, I'm not one of those people who points everyone to his website to end every discussion about digital audio, although he is obviously not just some casual guy [:)] ) there's something wrong with anything that sounds better with external clock and you should complain to the manufacturer; a clock itself doesn't have a sound of its own.

However, I can say beyond a doubt that when I was using the Digidesign 888 and 888/24, using *any* external clock made a noticeable improvement - regardless of whether the clock came from a cheap box. And when i was using a digital mixer in my rig, the best-sounding set-up was when I used distributed clock, again regardless of the box.

Likewise, a good friend of mine who uses MOTU gear says the Big Ben makes a difference even his untrained wife can hear immediately. So I guess it all depends.

In any case, I can hear the difference on some material when I use the embedded clock in a lightpipe, especially over longer runs (> 3 ft. or so). But since jitter supposedly only affects converters (again, I know that's not 100% true), meaning the transfer either succeeds or fails, it's only while you're monitoring that you can hear the jitter. Supposedly.

Note that jitter is just a subtlety, while clicks and pops are a sign that something is broken. Ed obviously knows that, but...

@svonkampen said:

ok there AudioPhiles,


If I sent you a bounce from the litepipes......and a bounce straight from the G5 .......i say you will not be able to tell the difference....and if your ears can't hear it, it's good enough.....


I know ...you guys are all gonna jump on me for this.........but at some point good enough, really IS good enough.....

jitter, schmitter...it's fine.

SvK

Hi SvK,

I tried your setup with a second G5 and I apreciate that you shared it with us. When you come to Cologne I´ll buy you a drink.
But!: In my test there where audible jitter sounds in the transmitting lightpipe.
I´m not an Audiophile, but the Quality of the built in Audiocard seems to be poor.
When playing more notes in an opended plug in (not only VI also Real guitar) the Qualitiy becomes worse.
(Is it an audiocard issue or an problem of plogue bildule?)
I assume, that if I connect a professional Audiocard it will sound ok.
So far the Audioquality in my test is not acceptable.
Has anyone experienced any bettter?

Best regards Oliver Heuss

Oliver,

It would be hard for me to trouble shoot your jitters,
I myself am not getting any.

However, I did a have a midi-loop when I first rigged the ethernet, which was causing ungodly cracks, pops, and stutters....until I made that transormer-object in Logic7 set to filter matching-events...

After I figured that out, all my popping went away...

Also have you made sure that Plogue is set to a buffer-size of 512? I think it defaults to much lower, which Samplers don't like, this would explain why the quality gets worse as you play more notes.

Svk

Oliver ....one more thing......

My main G5 (the one running the DAW) DOES have a fire-wire Audio Interface (metric-halo ULN-2).

It is only the 2nd Slave G5 that does NOT have an Audio Interface.......

The clock on my Metric halo is what drives the setup. Make sure you have 2 litepie cables coming and going from the 2nd G5....other wise it will NOT recieve a clock.

SvK