Nick Batzdorf and Vagn - RE: 2 Macs

[JWL]

Gents:

I thought I'd split of the Mac network chat from the Mac vs Windows discussion.

From the other thread----

@Another User said:

While I don't have a PCI-424 card in my second G5 yet - I'm using the Mac's built-in TOSlink output converted to wired S/PDIF in both directions as a temporary solution - I have one on my main G5. It works really well, and I haven't missed my Panasonic DA7 digital mixer since I sold it a couple of years ago. I was worried about not being able to grab faders to adjust levels, but it's pretty much set-and-forget in the CueMix Console program.

Questions:

1. How are you converting TOSlink to SPDIF? This is on your master computer? That would make sense sense the final output would likely be just stereo.

2. Do you ever desire to have more than 2 outs on your second computer-- or are you even able to get more than 2 simultaneous outs this way? I'm still not quite clear how your are doing this with a Core system on one computer, Built-in Audio on the other-- bringing together the two audio sources ______ 'how'?

3. Is the 424's ADAT SYNC port not needed at all?

and this is where I really get lost ---

4. If I wanted to connect two MOTU core systems I would
-- sync via wordclock on both (this is the easy part)
-- connect my slave farm's interface to my G5's 2408/424 'how'?

-- It seems that M-Audio has some PCI cards with both audio and midi connections. Technically, this makes the most sense, but I cannot stomach the brittle sound of M-Audio's cards.

FWI- I have a 2408mk2 / PCI-324 for my G4, and the 2408mk3/424 on my G5.

Again, please forgive me for not fully grasping the entirety of the concept. I have just found an article which deals with some of this, especially with Audio/MIDI Network settings...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul05/articles/tiger.htm

Off to do some homework!

[Nick Batzdorf]

@Another User said:

1. How are you converting TOSlink to SPDIF? This is on your master computer? That would make sense sense the final output would likely be just stereo.

Instead of having an audio interface on the remote machine, I use the built-in digital audio. This is a temporary solution, since it's only two channels and I'd like to have eight. I picked up an M-Audio CO2 on ebay for $25; it converts optical S/PDIF to RCA S/PDIF, which I have plugged into a MOTU box on my main G5.

I also have three PCs connected to a 2408 box on the G5 via lightpipe. They all have sound cards (Frontier Designs Wavecenter).

I'd much rather stream audio over ethernet, at least from the slave G5 into the main one instead of using TOSlink, but so far none of the solutions seems to work. Wormhole and Jack OS X have unacceptable latency, and AUNetsend/Receive (included in OS X 10.4 - I'm not sure if you can use them in DP) stars out fine but then the latency gets progressively worse until after half an hour it's literally three seconds.

I'm going to post this and continue...

[Nick Batzdorf]

@Another User said:

It seems that M-Audio has some PCI cards with both audio and midi connections. Technically, this makes the most sense, but I cannot stomach the brittle sound of M-Audio's cards.

The great thing about MIDI-over-ethernet (MOL or Network MIDI) is that you don't need MIDI interfaces on all your machines.

[Vagn Luv]

Good move with a seperate thread for this! [:)]

Just to chip in, the way I'm going to try this out will be like this:

G5 (master) linked with Tiger's built in LAN midi to a G4 (slave). Both running Tiger, obviously.

I'll get a soundcard for the G4 with 8 channel lightpipe outputs, and run them into my ProTools HD 192 interface, which has a 8 channel lightpipe input.

I'll have 4 stereo instrument tracks setup in the ProTools software. Fyi, an instrument track in ProTools has the midi data on it, and at the same time function as Aux getting a live stereo feed input from the lightpipe.

Sync I will have to check on, but hopefully Ill find a soundcard for the slave with Sync out, so I can hook it up with my 192 interface on the master G5. Didn't know jitter was extra bad on lightpipe signals.

On the slave G4 I'm right now trying to figure out what I'll use for instantiating the AU VI. I 'm not sure about if the standalone mode will cut it. Anyone know how it handles multiple midichannels + routing to the various outputs on the slaves soundcard?

Another option is getting Logic Pro and run it from there, which will also get me the instruments included with Logic to be played over LAN midi, which is very nice (I lub the EVP and EVD). [H] Downside is this is an expensive solution, with the added cost of Logic Pro.

Any other solution around, like an AU standalone-plugin stacking program that can handle multiple midi and audio channels around for Tiger?


The thing I'm most curious about is ofcourse the latency, as I want to be able to play the VI live over the LAN midi, without having to think 2 seconds ahead. [[;)]] What are your latencies in miliseconds, using what buffersize on host and slave?

Thx for the help! [:D]

[Nick Batzdorf]

I don't know what the latency is for MIDI, but I didn't notice it.

@Another User said:

Sync I will have to check on, but hopefully Ill find a soundcard for the slave with Sync out, so I can hook it up with my 192 interface on the master G5. Didn't know jitter was extra bad on lightpipe signals.

Yes, especially longer runs. But I wouldn't make your soundcard the master if you have a 192. You should listen to the difference, but chances are great that your system will sound better with the 192 clocking it. And if you're using the 192's analog inputs, it's almost certain that it will.

Usually the device with the converters should be the master. But there have been exceptions, for instance the old 888 and 888/24 sounded better clocked externally no matter what you were using; and a lot of people use tweak clocks such as the Apogee Big Ben to improve things like MOTU boxes.

[plowman]

"Logic Node is a program that lets you run Logic plug-ins (only) on a remote machine; it streams the audio back and forth between Logic and Logic Node over ethernet."

I had been told that a Logic node only streamed mathematical stuff, using the noded CPU to crunch numbers for things like IR's. This was the explanation for why we couldn't node EXS. Was I mis-informed? And if nodes do handle audio, why can't we use EXS on them? Perhaps it's a quantity issue. Thanks, Nick.

[cm]

plowman, theoretically logic node could do even that (node EXS), but currently it is not implemented. main reason might be that streaming samples from the host to the node and audio back to the host doesn't work reliable even using gigabit ethernet
this might be related to the nature of ethernet where packet size is by default about 1.500 byte (with gigabit even 15.000 byte) and the packets of data needed for streaming are about 256 byte or actually less - i'd assume the resulting overhead would add too much unwanted latency.
the other way around - if the samples would be stored on the node computer, this is not supported by EXS running on the host ...
christian

[Nick Batzdorf]

You know, Plowman, I never stopped to think about that. As cm implies, you're right, it's just the processing.

[hermitage59]

@cm said:

plowman, theoretically logic node could do even that (node EXS), but currently it is not implemented. main reason might be that streaming samples from the host to the node and audio back to the host doesn't work reliable even using gigabit ethernet
this might be related to the nature of ethernet where packet size is by default about 1.500 byte (with gigabit even 15.000 byte) and the packets of data needed for streaming are about 256 byte or actually less - i'd assume the resulting overhead would add too much unwanted latency.
the other way around - if the samples would be stored on the node computer, this is not supported by EXS running on the host ...
christian

Does firewire or usb get past this? Or are they too slow, and narrow bandwidth?

Alex.

[cm]

ok, i've been a little bit inaccurate ... ethernet is just the carrier for TCP/IP which is the needed type of connection for logic node. of course you can also use firewire as carrier for TCP/IP (400 resp 800 Mbit) for TCP/IP, USB is currently not possible AFAIK.
but IMO the issue is not the bandwidth (you can mount network drives over gigabit to stream samples from there without problems) but the protocol used to node logic - this again is using TCP/IP as a carrier.
EXS is designed to stream samples from a locally mounted volume - i'd assume some in-depth changes in EXS would be nessecary to node it. and, hey, apple wouldn't sell any additional logic licenses then [;)]
christian

[tomhartman]

Nick...or anyone...I have a G Dual 2 G. I'm thinking of adding a new Mac. I'm using Logic 7.2.

1 I have an RME Fireface. Would I just use the lightpipe to connect the two Macs and use Tiger's built in Network thing for midi? COULD IT REALLY be this simple? I have no other devices in the room, just my keyboard...

Thanks
Tom

@Another User said:

1. How are you converting TOSlink to SPDIF? This is on your master computer? That would make sense sense the final output would likely be just stereo.

Instead of having an audio interface on the remote machine, I use the built-in digital audio. This is a temporary solution, since it's only two channels and I'd like to have eight. I picked up an M-Audio CO2 on ebay for $25; it converts optical S/PDIF to RCA S/PDIF, which I have plugged into a MOTU box on my main G5.

I also have three PCs connected to a 2408 box on the G5 via lightpipe. They all have sound cards (Frontier Designs Wavecenter).

I'd much rather stream audio over ethernet, at least from the slave G5 into the main one instead of using TOSlink, but so far none of the solutions seems to work. Wormhole and Jack OS X have unacceptable latency, and AUNetsend/Receive (included in OS X 10.4 - I'm not sure if you can use them in DP) stars out fine but then the latency gets progressively worse until after half an hour it's literally three seconds.

I'm going to post this and continue...

[Vagn Luv]

You could Tom, but you wouldn't be able to sync the digital signals. Apart from that, the built in lightpipe provides 2 channels, whereas several soundcards provide 8 channels in the lightpipe.

[jamriding]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

MIDI Over LAN (www.musiclab.com) sends multiport MIDI between Macs and/or PCs over ethernet.

Network MIDI is the equivalent to MOL built into OS X 10.4 (you access it in the Audio MIDI Setup program). It requires two Macs running OS X 10.4+ - you can't use it between Macs and PCs.

Logic Node is a program that lets you run Logic plug-ins (only) on a remote machine; it streams the audio back and forth between Logic and Logic Node over ethernet. Obviously you can't use it with DP.

Thanks for a very clear explanation of this, Nick. It certainly makes a lot more sense now.