JWL and Dave,

I've been following this discussion with interest, and learnt a lot, which i'll carefully put away for the future.

Thank you to you both.

Regards,

Alex.

Always nice to get a visit from the kind soul Alex.

Thanks Alex. It feels nice to have gotten around a problem or series of problems and to now be actually talking about how to make some music with these tools.

Sometimes I get the feeling that all this comes so much easier for others than it does for me. Before I can type in my authorization codes, someone else has managed to do mock-ups of the complete symphonies of Shostakovich or something, with a Grammy nomination to boot. Of course, I'm exaggerating, but while I'm hardly new to the VSL concept, I am in the process of finding better ways to use VI-- to get better results, to increase workflow, output and productivity.

Dave-- I was checking out the MIR video, which was a glorified teaser. Very informative and very well done. It only mentioned offline rendering, but I'll have to go back to check out what it said ever so breifly about monitoring, without which it would be impossible to use.

Sorting out how to manage virtual instruments is indeed a problem. Aside from CPU resources being severely spread thin, there is the ongoing problem of computer monitor space and a gaziilion windows open at once. DP5 promises a lot of new features, many of which are rather optional, but the Meter Bridge is arguably the most significant addition to become quite indispensable.

We've seen ads with DP running on two large Apple Cinema displays, which alone are quite an investment-- but one would ideally consider having an AGP card with twin DVI outputs. Add a few hundred $$ to the expense. Funny thing is, before I got my G5 (and VI) I was using two monitors, but the notion of using three monitors with VI consoles, etc., is not so outrageous, except that it would be financially impractical and costing thousands.

Ah, what are electronic musicians to do?

JWL,

A meter bridge in Dp 5? How would that differ from th meters in the mix window? Just a friendlier interface for watching levels?

Do you happen to use cuemix? I never have but was looking at it today and it looks like it could be useful but I don't know what the benefit would be except zero latency (which isn't a problem for me now.)

I have two monitors now finally: Dell 24 inch and Viewsonic 20 and it's been very helpful. Now with VI I can relate to a third monitor but from whence would I connect to the G5 and where to put the screen?

Yes, the meter bridge would put just the meters in front of you at a glance when you don't really need to see the entire mixer. It may help save screen space without having to open and close the mixer repeatedly.

If you don't need CueMix, don't worry. It is convenient when it is needed, and it comes in quite handy.

Lucky man you are with two monitors! I had two on my G4, but when my G5 arrived I had to go back to one each because I still use both computers.

The truth is that some of this stuff is going to take require an IMAX sized monitor to navigate all the windows if things keep expanding at the current rate.

JWL,

How are you using cuemix and how are you using the G4? Sorry for 20 questions.

Hows the Strauss coming along? My Orch Strings level 2 license ran out which halted things although I spent the entire day yesterday setting up my pc with VST host for WW's I.

Actually, I'm not using my G4 right now to farm out extra sounds. However, someone on Unicornation has come up with a brilliant process to use a second Mac as a farm slave at zero-latency with some clever hardware connections.

It seems that this guy has connected his second Mac to the same MIDI interface as his primary computer via the USB port. For audio, I think he's routing it digitally out of his second computer into a mixer and then into his audio interface via ADAT or TDIF connections. It's more or less the same way people connect any hardware synth or sampler. I'm surprised more people aren't doing it this way. Another guy who doesn't have the multi-channel connectivity routes his audio into his interface (and hence into his primary computer) by using the stereo SPDIF (again, I don't have complete details on how he's doing this).

If this technique indeed offers zero or near-zero latency, I'm going to have to give this a try.

The Strauss will be an ongoing project. Currently, I'm having to learn about 30 scores for upcoming concerts-- I'll be on the road for a few weeks (I'm a conductor), so my VSL time is limited until the first week of May. I've not really done more with it because it will require using PE in Logic for winds, brass, and perc. That could be very time consuming just to set up. It's an ongoing project that I try to add to a little each day.

As you know, there are 3 flutes plus picc, 2 ob, Eng hn, Heckelphone, 2 E-flat clar, 2 B-flat clar, Bass clar, 3 bassoons plus contra, 6 French horns (in F an D), 4 trumpets, 4 trombones, tuba, celeste, 2 harps, and perc out the wazoo. The setup is so complex that it may be worth replicating much more of the score than what I'd planned.

What a drag on the L2 licenses. I only have L2's for Orch Strings 1 & 2 at the moment. Haven't done much with Chamber or Solo Str-- am saving my numbers of starts for when paychecks are more common! Because I had SE and PE, my Orch Str licenses cost only $65 for L2. Seemed reasonable to get those done right away for the sake of using these sounds without worry. I haven't even installed WW1 yet---

JWL,

I think my next move will be a quad G5 as a VST host. Perhaps MOL and a sound card (or even try the G5 spdif.) Just to keep things simple.

Yes I suspected you were a conductor with your firm grasp of things orchestral. Love to hear more about that. I studied for a year with the Los Angeles legend Fritz Zweig who was Bruno Walter's colleague in Berlin in the '20's and came to LA with him in the early 60's (1982 is when I studied with the 89 year old man.) His credentials are a mile long: a few would be that he studied composition with Schoenberg in Europe as well as piano with Lechetitzky. George Zell was his assitant at Prague for ten years. He was close friends with Stavinsky as they were neighbors in LA and would play cards. Zweig knew every major musical figure practically. When we were studying Also Sprach I asked him what orchestra he may have conducted it with: Leningrad. He toured Europe premiering Elektra - can you imagine? Also premiered Puccini after Walter would do a first performance. This is mentioned in the excellent Walter Bio of a few years back. Zweig taught me what the essence of music is on some almost unconcious level. A beautiful man.

I have level 2 going again and it didn't cost that much: turns out I have a little more time - I have 1st ed complete.

Let's hear the Strauss whenever. Just getting winds going myself.

Best of luck with conducting dates.

@dpcon said:

JWL,

I think my next move will be a quad G5 as a VST host. Perhaps MOL and a sound card (or even try the G5 spdif.) Just to keep things simple.

Yes I suspected you were a conductor with your firm grasp of things orchestral. Love to hear more about that. I studied for a year with the Los Angeles legend Fritz Zweig who was Bruno Walter's colleague in Berlin in the '20's and came to LA with him in the early 60's (1982 is when I studied with the 89 year old man.) His credentials are a mile long: a few would be that he studied composition with Schoenberg in Europe as well as piano with Lechetitzky. George Zell was his assitant at Prague for ten years. He was close friends with Stavinsky as they were neighbors in LA and would play cards. Zweig knew every major musical figure practically. When we were studying Also Sprach I asked him what orchestra he may have conducted it with: Leningrad. He toured Europe premiering Elektra - can you imagine? Also premiered Puccini after Walter would do a first performance. This is mentioned in the excellent Walter Bio of a few years back. Zweig taught me what the essence of music is on some almost unconcious level. A beautiful man.

I have level 2 going again and it didn't cost that much - I have 1st ed complete.

Let's hear the Strauss whenever. Just getting winds going myself.

Best of luck with conducting dates.

Puts my brief sojourn waving the baton at a theatre orchestra firmly in context!
(Good experience though. Going from playing to conducting was an eye opener.)
I add my best wishes for the gigs.

Respects to you both,

Alex.

Hey Alex-- thanks! As you know, anytime you stick your neck out-- or baton, an orchestra can chew you up and spit you back out again if you're not careful. It's an education in more ways than one!!

Dave-- Zweig? Are you kidding me?? You know, I waffled between using 'Elektra' or 'Salome' for this first giant score exercise. There are parts of 'Elektra' that nearly bare my soul. That score is so brilliantly written, but the orchestration alone is simply blows me away. Zweig = pure brilliance. Such ease of command over large ensembles. Amazing!! Nice to sit under that tree, huh? Congrats!

I'll keep picking away at the Strauss. How much of it are you doing? I'd love to do from 314 to the end, but I may stop at 323 for now and then try to tackle some or all of Salome's Tanz. Wouldn't 'Don Quixote' be a fun challenge? Hey you mentioned 'Zarathustra'... but at some point we must get our own humble compositions done, don't we? [:P]

I've got a long list of contenders for future exercises-- Hindemith's "Mathis der Maler", Rachmaninoff Symphony #2. Brahms' "Haydn Variations", and a piano concerto by just about anyone. Ambitious and edifying-- even if time consuming. What I love about doing these studies is that I don't question the compositions the way I do my own work. Nice not to have to worry about such things when dancing with the computer and honing technological skills. Plus, reviewing masterworks always raises the bar for my scoring projects. No shortcuts!!

One question-- I think there's an error in the bar before 324. It indicates the solo violin in pizz, but that should be the rest of the section and not the solo. I really need a better edition of this!! The Strauss Complete Edition is running about $1k (!!), but Boosey and Hawkes' study score may be better than the Dover reprint at a price that will allow me to buy all of my VI Extended codes!!

I cheerfully envy you both, although my study here has been priceless, and is ongoing.
It would be most rewarding to sit down and practise 'sample performance' skills, refining and honing, using the orchestra between the ears to draw nuance and texture into the medium. My picks for this exercise for the future would be Saint-Saens Organ symphony, Beethoven's 8th, and Shostakovich 7 and 11, and then graduate to solo instruments, e.g. Bruch's Violin Concerto, Sheherazade, etc.
JWL, your premise of practising with known works to enhance performance with self written work rings with me too, and i think this method of skill emhancement would definitely raise the bar, and keep the standard up. It would also prove a worthy critique of orchestration versus sample performance limitations. No hiding!
Strauss's Elektra and the outstanding orchestration would be my choice in his work, along with another great test for string performing and interpretation, Sibelius' Swan of Tuonela. I've listened to this regularly once again, and there's a lot to consider.
I also think the Grieg Piano Concerto would be enlightening. (Something i was performing before my accident. A most enjoyable piece to play and intepret, IMHO) Wagner too, with the Prelude to Lohengrin, and Tristan, promises much as a challenge to improve skills.
One thing is for sure, orchestral experience counts for both good and challenging.
We know what we hear, and expect that in the end result. The method of obtaining that will be a reflection of how skillful we are in sample performance.

As a brief aside, the worst piece i ever had the misfortune to conduct was The Gondoliers. Page after page of offbeats and little else. I went home after each night's performance (6 week season) and railed in frustrated boredom to the sounds of Beethoven, Mahler, Wagner and Shostakovich, just to maintain a foothold in sanity!

Regards,

Alex.

Bartok's "Wooden Prince" is one of those scores that doesn't get heard as often as it should. It's also a brilliantly orchestrated work. Dare I even mention "The Rite Of Spring"?!! Talk about off beats...!!!!!! Yikes!!

One finds oneself quickly at a crossroads, deciding if whatever shortcomings exist in an electronic rendering of whether the limitations are those of the library or of the user. One VERY interesting (and often maddening) thing to do is to fly in a live orchestral track as a guide to match the articulations, intepretation, and "human imperfections" note for note (not to mention balance and ambience).

There are just not nearly enough hours in a single day!

Very interesting Gentleman. I don't know that Bartok piece but love his work. Bluebeards Castle is a favorite of mine along with his more popular works. I've done a few sample realizations of things from the literature and always found it rewarding. Currently I'm working on my own Classical style overture since it was done many years ago with wholly inferior samples. It's shaping up alright but is very work intensive as it's pre-existing midi information that's really all over the place on important parameters such as velocity and placement in the track (which is so compensated for slow speaking samples as to be shifted unusably early.)

I love all the works mentioned by you guys. I love Mathis der Mahler and have both the symphony and opera scores. Just picked up Rachmaninov's 2 last summer and need to swing by and pick up his 3rd which I just ordered.

To quite Zweig on his friend Hindimith, "He was a very nice man" which was spoken with an uncommon warmth and depth of feeling. His only comment on my enthusiasm for the Mathis opera was, "It is a very long opera."

I remember that quote from orch lit class!! "Mathis" the opera got a bad rap, as I recall, but I fell in loved with the symphonic version-- such great string writing and a great harmonic/melodic concept. I know more people who hate both works than love it, but it's their loss!!

Other faves:

Barber Symphony #1
Bernstien "West Side Story" Symphonic Dances
Corigliano Symphony #1
Anything by Ravel
Mendelssohn "Reformation" Symphony
Prokofiev Symphony $5
Copland "Quiet City", "Billy The Kid"
Wagner Overture to "Die Meistersinger"
Verdi Overture to "La Forza del Destino"
Schubert Symphony #9
Brahms Symphony #3
Beethoven Symphony #2 (rarely done)

Where do you stop such a list?