Legato and gaps between notes

[DG]

How do I set the performance instruments only to play legato when there are no gaps between the notes? In the Pro Edition I had the gap set to 0, but can't seem to find a way to do it in VI. At the moment I have to leave a rather large gap to force a start note.

DG

[herb]

Best way to force a startingnote (nonlegato note) with no gap or a very small gap, is switching to a nonlegato patch.
The legato treshhold value is generally set to 50ms.

best
Herb

[DG]

@herb said:

Best way to force a startingnote (nonlegato note) with no gap or a very small gap, is switching to a nonlegato patch.
The legato treshhold value is generally set to 50ms.

best
Herb

That's a real pity. I am already having to keyswitch away from Perf instruments like the spiccato patch as it keeps joining to the following legato note. If I play the spiccato note shorter it sounds truncated.

I'm sure that the Gigastudio default threshold was 20ms, and although I used to set it to 0, 20ms would be better than 50ms for me.

It seems as if people who can actually play keyboard instruments are being discriminated against here [:'(]

DG

[JBacal]

Perhaps VI programming wizards could give us a knob in version 1.1 so the user could alter the threshold if desired?

I also used to work with a threshold of 0-- whenever I wanted the performance effect I just overlapped the notes.

Best,
Jay

[DG]

@JBacal said:

I also used to work with a threshold of 0-- whenever I wanted the performance effect I just overlapped the notes.

Best,
Jay

Yeah, so simple yet so effective :>(

DG

[julian]

I agree!

Makes sense to have Legatos for overlapped or notes joined right together and non-legato where there is a gap - however small. That's if there is no optional manual control.

Julian

[DG]

Right I've spent all morning (well a couple of hours) trying to sort this out. If I follow Herb's suggestion it almost works, but I have to hit two keyswitches and a slider all at the same time in order to get something passable. If I don't try to do it by playing live, then I can make it work, but then that defeats the whole object (and it is quicker to use the Pro Edition). I would like one of two options:

1) Be able to re-set the legato threshold to 0
2) Be provided with "change of bow legato" (maybe soft tonguing for the wind) which would only require one keyswitch and all the velocities would match up. In fact I think that the current EW legato feature (QLegato) is exactly what I am looking for when I need bowing changes.

Thoughts anyone?

DG

[herb]

Especialy for spiccato performances I recommend the Perf-Spiccato Speed matrix files, here you are triggering normal single note samples automatically at a slower performance tempo.

best
Herb

[DG]

@herb said:

Especialy for spiccato performances I recommend the Perf-Spiccato Speed matrix files, here you are triggering normal single note samples automatically at a slower performance tempo.

best
Herb

Yes, but then when you switch to a legato patch you get a grace note caused by the transition material.

DG

[JBacal]

DG-- a workaround is to use the repetition legato samples for the first note of a change of bow direction legato phrase. This usually works fine unless the first note of the phrase is long-- then the repetition samples are usually not long enough.

Still I would like to the ability to set the threshold to 0.

--Jay

[DG]

@JBacal said:

DG-- a workaround is to use the repetition legato samples for the first note of a change of bow direction legato phrase. This usually works fine unless the first note of the phrase is long-- then the repetition samples are usually not long enough.

Still I would like to the ability to set the threshold to 0.

--Jay

Yes that works, but again requires a more complicated keyswitch. One more thought (based on your idea): why can't we trigger (by keyswitch) the repetition samples that are already in the legato instrument? I used to do this when I didn't want the particular timbre of a start note, but didn't want a slur either.

DG

[DG]

Right one more thought before I give up.

Sometimes when transferring MIDI files from notation programs the lengths of notes correspond to the length that the sample should play. Unfortunately that means staccato notes often sound truncated and all legato sounds slurred.

Therefore a solution to all this would be for us to be able to keyswitch a start note, a repeat note (for a change of timbre or bow) and fast legato within the Universal Mode (as it sometimes starts one note too late). Using this method one could make all the notes legato and just keyswitch at leisure to change articulation and dynamic.

DG

[Cutler]

It's been over a year since the last post on this thread, so:

1. Has the interface now got a mechanism to reduce the 50ms interval to stop the "interval performances" making unwanted grace notes? As far as I can tell there is nothing in 1.11 that helps
2. Has anyone found any easier mechanisms of "frigging" the system to work?

This is the main glitch that causes me any aggravation with VI, which I find otherwise very easy to use with excellent results, but it does seem surprising that one of the systems most important parameters isn't tweakable.

[DG]

@Cutler said:

It's been over a year since the last post on this thread, so:

1. Has the interface now got a mechanism to reduce the 50ms interval to stop the "interval performances" making unwanted grace notes? As far as I can tell there is nothing in 1.11 that helps
2. Has anyone found any easier mechanisms of "frigging" the system to work?

This is the main glitch that causes me any aggravation with VI, which I find otherwise very easy to use with excellent results, but it does seem surprising that one of the systems most important parameters isn't tweakable.

I did get it to work by leaving a longer gap which I covered with the sustain pedal. However, this no longer works in the latest player update.

DG

[William]

I also notice this as a problem, and would like to shorten the legato triggering time. I have taken to either lengthening the release time which can only help a little before it starts to sound weird, or by writing two tracks in order to deal with bowing changes that are not shortened notes. Though that is contrary to the whole idea of VI.

[DG]

Yeah, changing the release time is not great, although it was all we had in the Pro Edition. I'm going to consider rolling back to the previous player version unless VSL have a good solution for me.

DG

[Beat Kaufmann]

Hello key switchers

Here are useful links about legato-handling, keyswitches, gaps, 50ms etc.

Legato after single articulations I
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vitipstricks/index.php#53248297b5030e502

Legato after single articulations II
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vitipstricks/index.php#53248297b50aa4506

Legato between single notes (a bit tricky)
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vitipstricks/index.php#033ff4988e003c602

Playing single notes into each other
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/gentutorials/stringarrangements/part3/technicalaspectsstrarrpart3.html#033ff4990d008d503


All the best
Beat Kaufmann

[William]

Beat Kaufman - I thought DG said he was already using the sustain pedal.

One other thing I just noticed - VI will not switch to the next articulation unless the previous articulation's note is shorter than the keyswitch entrance as opposed to the last played note's release. That is a problem, and contrary to normal midi behavior which instantly switches to the next midi event, allowing you to "prepare" for the next note entrance even though something else is sustaining. So it requires you to shorten the previous note's length to shorter than the keyswitch entrance. Though it is not a huge problem.

[DG]

@Beat Kaufmann said:

If you can't have a gap of 50ms - what ever the situation may be - stop playing the note and press the pedal CC64 - like it is shown in the picture of the link example. With this technique you will be able to play the sound as close to the following legato sound as you wish it to do.

All the best
Beat Kaufmann

Beat, are you actually saying that this still works? On all my PCs this feature has been broken by the 1.11 player "improvement".

DG

[Beat Kaufmann]

Hello again

William, sorry that I repeated an already given answer.

DG, I agree that the latest link was not very helpful. It is about playing single notes into each other and that's not quite that what you wanted to know. BTW this technique was used more then once in the piece which belongs to that part of the corresponding tutorial (Melting Walz).

Because of this matter I decided to expand the tutorial VI-Tips & Tricks with the point:

How to cross the gap of 50ms with sound?
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vitipstricks/index.php#033ff499211241803
This expansion is about playing a Single Note as close as possible (closer than 50ms) to a followed Legato Note without triggering the crossing legato sound.

Remark:
1. Nothing new for an "old hand".
2. DG, It does not solve your problem which you have posted as starting thread.[:'(]

All the best
Beat