total newbie just getting started!

[paul lm]

hey guys.

i'm a film composer, and last month ordered the entire Vienna instruments collection - i'll be making it the full extended versions of every one, so am very excited!

am absolutely mental with work, and will only have about 2 days in between scores to get my system setup, so am looking for help/advice about how to go about it. treat me like an absolute novice, as i've never used the VSL stuff before.

I run Digital Performer on a Mac (G5 dual 2.5, 5 gigs of RAM),(with mach 5, all the NI and spectrasonics stuff) into 2 * 2408's. I also have a spare MOTU 896 floating around.

Am i right in assuming the best thing to do would be to buy a new mac specifically for these sounds? how would it work setting up, and sending midi to this mac? does it work as a standalone, or would i install DP onto the second mac and run vienna instruments as a plug-in?

Sorry for the long-winded post, but i'm not going to have that much time to get ti set up, and am trying to get my head round what i need to do, which is quite hard when i've never even seen the product, let alone use it!

thanks in advance.

paul

[paul lm]

bump [:)]

anybody? could really do with all of your help, as i'm just starting up and need to get it sorted pretty quickly!

thanks in advance - be gentle, it's my first post [[:|]]

[PaulR]

@paul lm said:

bump [:)]

anybody? could really do with all of your help, as i'm just starting up and need to get it sorted pretty quickly!

thanks in advance - be gentle, it's my first post [[:|]]

Whereabouts roughly do you live?

[paul lm]

hey paul. glasgow and london. why?

[Paul]

So here´s another Paul [:D]

Welcome, paul lm! And sorry for the delay...

I´m just checking your options (as I´m not really a Mac guy, I have to reassure that my assumtions are correct)

One option (and probably the most affordable) is to use dedicated PC´s to host your Vienna Instruments and simply connect them via MIDI over LAN, that saves you expensive MIDI patchbays...

You would treat the PC´s like standalone samplers, load up your Vienna Instruments and sequence on your DP...

More info asap.

Best,

Paul

[PaulR]

@paul lm said:

hey paul. glasgow and london. why?

It's just that you said 2 days to get it up and running. That's not a lot of time if you are not used to these things. I would get someone in on this to do it for/with you that has already got the experience. Must be plenty of people in London and Glasgow that could help. It could take nearly 2 days just to load the samples in. Then there's things like EXS manager etc.

Another Mac is a good idea if you think you're going to need it.

[JWL]

I sort of feel out of place here on "The Paul" thread!! [:D]

To Paul Im:

I have a 2.5 Dual like you (4.5 GB RAM) and also run DP. If you are ready to invest in a second Mac, congratulations!!

Short of doing that, I'm going to start by using Virtual Instruments as a stand alone on my G5 instead of using it as a plugin "inside" DP-- and therefore "outside" DP's 4 GB RAM limit. In fact, if it's possible to use some instances "inside" of DP concurrently, it *may be* possible (finally) to make the most of the G5's total 8 GB of RAM capacity. At the very least, Virtual Instruments and DP would each have a dedicated 4 GB of RAM on one machine, substantially more than what was used in VSL's PC tests, which appeared to be less than 3 GB to run Logic, VI, and the OS.

Given that the VSL team claims the Mac will make better use of its RAM, allowing for more samples to be loaded (vs. PC), being able to use 4GB or more holds great promise on one 2.5 dual.

As for the new Macs, the recent Macworld speed tests showed appreciable, but surprisingly, no *substantial* increase in horsepower on the Quads (compared to the 2.0 and 2.3 Duals). I imagine that these margins are even narrower on the 2.5 Dual.

The one major advantage for DAW users is that the Quad has a 16GB RAM capacity. With Virtual Instruments used as a stand alone app, the available RAM (theoretically on one Quad machine) would therefore be 12 GB, leaving the remaining 4 GB for DP and OSX.

No doubt, a 2.5 Dual linked to a Quad is an very exciting prospect. If money is no object, then there really is no decision to be made. Personally, I'm going to wait for the Quad-Intels for the benefit of both RAM and a more significant speed bump. In the meantime, my major investment for 2006 will be dedicated Virtual Instruments, more hard drives, and additional RAM for my 2.5 Dual.

Good luck!
JWL

[PaulR]

@JWL said:

Personally, I'm going to wait for the Quad-Intels for the benefit of both RAM and a more significant speed bump. In the meantime, my major investment for 2006 will be dedicated Virtual Instruments, more hard drives, and additional RAM for my 2.5 Dual.
JWL

Don't feel threatened because you're not called Paul. [:D]

I think the above quote of yours is sensible. Early Intel iMAc users, FWIW, are reporting that these are lightening quick - so waiting can't hurt. And if it turns out that they're hyping it up or just plain wrong - then there's nothing lost.

As I said in another thread, the issue isn't so much whether you can have huge amounts of ram - it's more to do with 'will Logic or DP etc actually be able to access it'. And there is very little difference because of this re: a 2.3,2.5 - 2.7 or a Quad.
Also, f***ing Apple seem to change the rules every 5 minutes. Will they concentrate their music software efforts on the Intel only in the future - and at the same time address the 4 processors issue on the current Quads?

Time will tell.

[paul lm]

hey guys.

thanks for all the tips.

paul - yeah, it's going to be around march 20th that i'll have the 2 days. (hopefully gettin a bit of sleep after the dub aswell!)i know it'll be a gradual process getting my head round it all, but the 2 days is the duration i've got to get the system up and running. i was actually speaking to an engineer yesterday who are running vsl on a gigastudio, but i kind of want to stay in the mac realm.

JWT - that's not a bad idea, though how would you route the audio into DP if you were using it as a standalone? what are the advantages of using it as a standalone, as opposed to plug-in? if you reckon that the computer could cope with that, whilst running mach 5 and all the VI's, then it might be a way to go.

Midi over LAN, Paul, i've vaguely heard of, but how does it work? is it literally a matter of connecting with an ethernet cable? (i'm assuming wireless wouldn't be reliable?) in an ideal world i wouldn't mind waiting until the next batch of intelmacs, but as it's all running under rosetta, if i do go down the separate mac route, think i'll just buy a dual 2.3 or something, and bump the ram. that should be enough?

In the meantime, any suggestions for getting my head round VSI? should i start reading the VSL forum about all this preformance tool, etc, or is it a totally different kettle of fish?

thanks in advance for all your help - i know, i know, novices can be a pain in the ass [:D]

cheers guys.

[JWL]

@Another User said:

JWT - that's not a bad idea, though how would you route the audio into DP if you were using it as a standalone? what are the advantages of using it as a standalone, as opposed to plug-in? if you reckon that the computer could cope with that, whilst running mach 5 and all the VI's, then it might be a way to go.

Well, that's the beauty of my very idealistic dream. Using VI with some sort of "wrapper" (e.g. VST Wrapper) would not use DP's RAM, allowing the user to access as much as 4GB RAM for VI on Duals 2.3, 2.5, and 2.7. On the Quad, the non-DP RAM can be as high as 12 GB. Again, some consideration must be given to the RAM needed to run OS X.

From
http://www.macmusic.org/softs/releases.php/lang/EN/id/701/plug/APP

Support for multiple Audio Unit outputs
Digital Performer now supports multiple outputs from Audio Unit virtual instruments. Users can manage both AU and Rewire outputs in the convenient and intuitive Instruments Tab in the Audio Bundles window.

This way, one may run other plugins "inside" DP while running VI "outside" DP on the same computer in advance of buying a separate machine just to run VI. The issue becomes a matter of routing just the audio into DP and not running the entire plugin natively in DP. At least this might provide an interim option for those who'd rather spend the extra $$ on hard drives and the VI Library rather than to spend it on a second computer right away.

Not that a second computer isn't a good idea, but for me the consideration has as much to do with the production down time it takes to get such a huge library installed and functioning as it does with the cash outlay-- plus the time it takes to work out any wrinkles with linking two computers-- getting them to "talk to" each other properly and negotiating any latency issues. I've learned to be patient with the fine tuning process which *can* take longer than the setup itself.

This also means (I hope) that the RAM limits of DP and Logic are no longer the brick wall or glass ceiling they once were.

Call me overly optimistic, but it seems that we might be able to finally have our cake (RAM) and eat it (use it) too-- and hopefully it will taste sweeeeet!!

[Paul]

Hi paul lm,

we will have more experience with different setups (sequencers and versions, platforms, audio drivers, OS´s....) within the next few weeks, so that it´s probably best to wait a little, as there are so many things happening right now.

Here´s more info regarding MIDI over LAN:

http://www.musiclab.com/products/rpl_info.htm

And just to avoid misunderstandings: You don´t need any additional sampler anymore, if you work on either PC or Mac for the Vienna Instruments...

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Best, Paul

[JWL]

Alas! I've been overtaken by yet another Paul!! [:D]

Thanks Paul and Paul and Paul and Paul and Paul and...

[Paul]

Seriously, I only know 2 Pauls personally - and now this [:D]

[JWL]

@Paul said:

Seriously, I only know 2 Pauls personally - and now this [:D]

It must be the magic of VSL!! [:D]

[Dar32]

Paul

This is a quick set up file. Of a full scoring CPU/Freindly orchestra. Keeps you from having to pick the right sounds which took me month's.

http://web.mac.com/robsnob/iWeb/ORCHESTRATION/03C364B9-F2F1-47CD-91F7-1C64479130FA.html

Best Regards

[paul lm]

thanks so much everyone for all your help - looking forward to getting the first batch, thought they're going to be sitting in a box for a week or 2...

R.K. that is super-helpful of you. you star [:D] won't pretend to understand half of it - i'm sure it'll make sense when i get it, but seriously thankyou. reckon that's going to save me days.

one last thing - is VSI dongle-protected? I think i'm going to keep it on my main G5, as you suggested, to try it out, and then move everything over when i've got a bit mroe time to work out midi over LAN. so would i just switch the dongle onto the other computer when i do this?

thanks once again - promise i'll get my head round it soon. just a bit new to the whole Vienna Symphonic business, but bought it all on the back of reccommendations. about time i got some decent string and brass sounds, let alone any of the other goodies!

[JJRoach]

Hello Paul to the 5th degree....or how many there are in this thread...

Here's something I've been considering...
Logic Master (or DP...whatever generates MIDI)
VI as a plug-in to some sort of Rack program, like Racks (or is it Rax)...or VRack,
or, what I just bought, Plogue Bidule, which routes audio either back to the sequencer, or to a separate rig, like a Protools rig...

using something like Bidule allows us to use VI as a plugin, it allows us to save multiple instances of VI (like an orchestral template) for later use, and it runs independant of our sequencer, which means quicker loading times for our Logic songs or DP files...I think this works great if you have a backbone emsemble that you use a lot, or a template that you always start with.

I think that this helps with routing MIDI too, since I haven't figured out a way for VI to catch MIDI on only 1 channel...it seems to only want to see ports.

Also, loading intsruments this way (I believe, if I understand this correctly) allows us to really use the massive amounts of RAM we can shove into our boxes. I believe that currently the maximum amount of RAM that any 1 instance of a program (like logic, or DP, or bidule, or VI standalone) can use is limited to 2 gigs (i think this will change as the programming incorporates 64-bit technology)...so, you max out your 2 gigs on one instance of Bidule, or VRacks, and then you load another instance of the program (I haven't quite tried this yet, but I plan to today).

Good Luck to us all.

Josh Roach