You and william have had me placed in a witness protection program under the supervision of officer dangle.

I've got one for you I call the clarck control progression.

Take any diminished 7th. Flatten the 7th 1/2 step.
lock position.
move inside fingers (3rd. & 5th.) down 1/2 step.
move outside fingers (1st. & 7th.)down 1/2 step.
scale target note to use is Harmonic minor. always 1 whole step down fron the (3rd.) or the second finger.

Clark that means no melodic minor. Even though i know you will anyway.

officer dangle is on duty, be carefull !!

I want whatever your drinking. And make it a double.

Clark

This is going to sound like a silly question, but forgive me as I have no academic knowledge/formal training in music...

When notes or chords "clash" as it were, is this what we refer to as dissonance? Or is that used to describe something else?

Mr Mantle

Its not at all a silly question. Infact

Your guess is as good as mine.

From the original questionair. we just assumed he was talking about dissonance, although I think he was questioning the proposition also, which led to a flury of educated thoughts, as well as exposing orchestrated inversions. As well as marketing the PC computer corporate base in washington state. ect.........

So you see, its not a silly question but thats the issues one has to deal with if one desires a real education in spite of corporate marketing greed , ego and self recognition.

In plain english : one has to sort out the bunk to get to the real truth.

I feel for the young today, because I know what I went through.

@R.K. said:

I feel for the young today, because I know what I went through.

I tihnk it's going to take more determination for my generation (well, I'm 29 so still consider myslef young!) to learn music properly. These days, with the progress of technology, it's easy for people like me with no training to buy a computer, get software and some sample libraries and try and pass themselves off as a compser (hehe).

Whilst it opens things up to a whole new (and potentially experimental) world of music, and allows people with creativity but no musical academia to get involved or try and express themselves through music, there is a danger that we could actually halt the progression of music more than we actually take it forward. And it's exactly because a lot of us simply don't understand music the same way the traditionalsts do. And how can we progress music without understanding it? I really don't want to see a world of drum loops and samples (I don't mean VSL type samples mind!) because no one took the time to study music anymore!

The only use I see of ignorance of musical academia is that you don't restrict yourself because of musical rules. But then surely not knowing the rules in the first place is more restrictive, because you never really know what you're doing! And without knowing the rules, you're more likely to be ticking the boxes of everything obvious and 'done before', because had you spent the time with your head in a theory book rather than a software manual, you'd have realised everyone else has already done what you have - only they did it years ago. you just didn't know [:)].

So I'm reading books and trying to learn, though I am doing it with an element of trepidation, because I kind of like the freedom of just having ideas and doing it and not wondering what the right or wrong method or approach should be. And because I don't know anything about key signatures or scales, sometimes I'll hit a couple of bum notes which I possibly wouldn't have done had I been more disciplined. And I'll keep them because actually, it works sometimes.

Jonny,

You will not lose your musical instincts as you familiarize yourself with musical rules. Instead, you will enhance your instincts, because knowledge is power when it comes to fleshing out your compositions.

And don't be worried about losing the ability to make "happy accidents" in your music. This, too, is a false assumption.

Clashing chords, as I understand it, is meant to imply a controlling of dissonance in varying degrees by using simple chords together to create complex harmonic relationships.

Clark

@clarkcontrol said:

Jonny,

You will not lose your musical instincts as you familiarize yourself with musical rules. Instead, you will enhance your instincts, because knowledge is power when it comes to fleshing out your compositions.

And don't be worried about losing the ability to make "happy accidents" in your music. This, too, is a false assumption.

Clark

For some reason I still find it incredibly difficult to learn/remember something that I don't derive a complete 'hands-on' example, as in someting I can physically use. I know all musical theory is something you will 'use' in some way, but, well, let me try and give you an example of what I mean:

If someone told me that a particular instrument works best in a certain register and for a cartain style and why that was, or how certain instruments are grouped together and why etc, I can listen to it (or load up my VSL samples!), play around with it and go "oh yeah, I see that working" and will remember it and can apply it.

But the number of times I've learned the way of how to look at a group of notes and fill in the key signature, knowing which order to put in any sharps or flats, or be given a key signature and know all the notes that would appear in it and forgotten again is... well, I've lost count.

In other words, things that are purely academic in nature can tend to get lost on me after a period, if I can get my head around it in the first place (and theory is something that for some reason I've never had much success with), but things that are more physical or can be shown by physical example I tend to remember.

R.K. You are correct, I just should have stated my post a little bit more clearly.Thanks...........

@Another User said:

I'll just use a triad

Excuse me... [*-)] But what is a triad? I have seen it numerous times, but still am unsure what to make of it.
I'm often a bit confused about terminology. Some things I only know in my own language (Dutch)... and for others I only know the English term!

Triad = three note chord

In this case, we are talking about common major and minor triads superimposed upon each other, thus creating complex harmony.

Clark

Triad = three note chord

In this case, we are talking about common major and minor triads superimposed upon each other, thus creating complex harmony.

Clark

@Another User said:

Triad = three note chord

In this case, we are talking about common major and minor triads superimposed upon each other, thus creating complex harmony.

Not good enough ! Mr Wellsdecker is trying to possibly take time off to write somthing for Fox... Orchestra . So he deserves a little more in depth explanation perhaps.

Mr Wellsdecker

A Triad is an abreviated word, an add used for advertisment for a tri-aria. You are mostlikely familiar with your line of T.V. editing work.

On the other hand, if you are in an aria of the globe, where your water pours clockwise or counter-clockwise, Then a triad (played backwards) < He He could mean ;

Any three notes when used in majors or minors (diatonic)
will have only three inversions, thus bypassing the seventh and avoiding abstarctism. Therefore the structure of music will retain an architectual harmoney in which to build on. Without abstract derailment. Also enabling any form or style of music. Forwards , backwards, Center , That is a Triad.

Sincerely
Clairvoyant Jackass Munshkin with way too much time on his hand.

Heilige Maria...

Triad is a underground society in Hong Kong.

A clashing chord of triads is when two gangs all of a sudden beat each other up, loud, harsh, dissonant, unpleasant, and in surprising opposition of what just happen a second before, of course undermined with with cymbal clashing, mostly executed by the gang ladies to support the beloved gangster.

.

ye and

It aint over untill the fat lady sings.


( thats musical, so its aloud on this forum )


Clark is going to have a ball on the next go round. I got a feeling. And I know when to be quiet. And absorb some knowledge.

ZIP

A Triad is a diatonic tertian trichord.

Diatonic means, using the reservoir of notes of a seven-note musical scale.
Trichord is a collection of three pitches.
Tertian means a chord constructed from thirds.

.

I love you guys...

Never a dull moment!

I was using an overly simplistic definition, to be sure. I like the Hong Kong reference though.

I need to work on being more clever.

Clark

Thanks! Much appreciated.

I'd better find a musical dictionary.
You know that it took me months to find out how mallets we're called in Dutch?
Their called 'kloppers' (beaters) [:)]

Theory and harmony colide at a fine line which melt together at a certain point.
Apparently to this day it is not clearly known the clear reference of diatonic, so my dictionary sais.

I have read in promanently well reputable profesors books that harmony is symetricks. It does get merky, So one can define harmony and perfect harmony maybee ? Thats how I'm looking at it. I'm sure there is someone who can spend all his time without composing and define up to date. The old authors had to document from instruments that had no pedals, or clearity, they also had way too much hash fill in pages that just for the sake of writing as much information fill as a read. But I trully have not had the time to cypher through all read, I just know from my studies which do coincide if rechecked or reproofed with the other (ancient) books. It is interesting though. Poppa has helped reproofing. Wish I could take a few lessons from him. Clark can clober nock with the best of them. Some people just dont want to face any of it. Its too much on their schedule already. Those who face it will accelerando.

PS.

Tertian in the dictionary means: Malaria reacuring on every third day.

I would suggest to use the Klopper knokers if one needs to get rid of the dreaded Tertian if need be. ( I know everything )
Thanks Angelo !

@R.K. said:

Apparently to this day it is not clearly known the clear reference of diatonic, so my dictionary sais.

Robert,

You may need another dictionary.

Diatonic, from the Greek diatonikos, "to stretch out";
Tertian, from Latin tertius, third;

... but don't educate yourself too much, because:
"Blessed are the ones who know nothing, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"; Matthew.

.

Thanks for returning, I was hoping somone with experience would.

Diatonic - the broad statement

you are right from stating diatonic uses the 7th, which in return we were talking about a triad which bypasses the 7th. Therefore maintaining complete and perfect structure. theoretically absolutely. Also diatonic states all notes within the major & Minor scale therefore, if triad used diatonicaly one will automatically bypass the 7th.
And thats the key issue is using diatonics in theory. its a broad statement,Harmony & Theory, were does one take up and one leaves? all notes within a scale. Triads rotate within the diatonic elements. another words Angelo I should have simply said, using triads with left hand to maintain structure and using right hand diatonicaly to fill or to tretch out as you put it. Thats the correct way of using the structure. I just jotted diatonic in parenthesis. You are right and a perfectionist. By the way diatonic in my dictionary states its church music. I guess that includes bach, and mozart, & chopin as a best example to use. But today church music means a whole different category of music. That is interesting. I am deffenitely refering about classical music, and how it is structured as of perfect diatonicaly structured harmony. Its reffered as classical music when its really just pure music as a default for use. Labels change in time which diffuse the picture. also prejudice diffuse the picture, If its mathematics then how can these things diffuse the issue? thats the question ? Real life has an effect on theory. For example history as we know it, starts the calendar from Jesus's age, in multiple of 12'ths ( month's,hours,keys on piano.) hearing by the word of god ! So God is involved in mathematics in our every day lives. And the mind is capable of complex mathematical structures if treated as not knowing. Thats the first thing one learns in Jazz, because its an improvisational art of comunication. but one would say, jazz uses the 7th's so the structure is broken into abstarct, so it is improvised on a structured chart and not used as the default structure. By this time one looses the theoretical picture and causes havoc if not careful. My statement in my book ,I qoute ;

@Another User said:

If the piano and the 12 Key system is the primary source of music & instrument to compose on. And theory is the proven mathematical formula in which to use. And the indigenous and original theory has been uncovered during the beginning of the music era. During the great composers era. It does not make it for Classical music exclusively. It makes it the primary theory to use for composing using the 12 key system. If you deny yourself the learning of it, you have denied yourself from composing, period. That is not to say that you cant use modern jazz elements of theory and write the same material. It is just approaching it from another direction , which is achieved possibly by ear. much the same as song writing is. Song writing is the art

Bach and the church is the begining of tuned pianos

Mozart took the first sacred work written on paper out of the church

Chopin's heart was buried under a church

Also the great vivaldi.


I can go all day on these theoretical elements. And the Clashing chords. I wrote a book on them. Because nobody else would, or actually have the time.

Sincerely
to my friend , Angelo ( the angel )