Dietz, that is basically the way I've always understood it. If you don't have the basic sound, no amount of screwing around will make it sound good. Also, as Herb suggested, if you record actual legato intervals, why fake them? Well, I suppose you could like synful, and then use an old sample library that had a good sound otherwise.

Though basically I don't believe it! Or I will believe it when I hear it! Something far beyond a tiny demo like this one, which I am not even certain of how it was produced because the people who did it are trying their hardest to be mysterious and sexy. I am not impressed.

Though even if this succeeds, it will still be a fake. I do believe in actually recording these sounds, as VSL does, then automating the use of them as in VI. Suppose someone creates an incredibly good faked legato, with harmonics and formants and all the associated acoustical elements correctly offset and shifted, etc. Someone else will still come along, and incorporate a true legato later on. And then what good is the fake? All of these musical elements are pre-existent and unchanging truths, such as the timbre of a ponticello violin tremolo. But all these technical reproductions are shifting, ephemeral, and simply a matter of data. So whoever is most true to the musical elements, will win in the end.

@Another User said:

cleriensis wrote:
congratulations to VSL and to Thomas.
cleriensis.

PaulR wrote:
For what?

it seems to me that this famous epic string is a future bank of VSL.....and Thomas is the composer of this extract ??? no ??, sorry but i am french and my english is not very good....

sorry if i have wrong...

cleriensis

Bonjour cleriensis,

Malheureusement le demo que vous voyez voici de la collection privée de Thomas ce n'est pas VSL.

désolé

Tim

@cleriensis said:

sorry but i am french and my english is not very good....

Well that's a funny stuff only French write.
There were once some threads about this silly sentense.

"Sorry but I'm French"

There are toon of non-native english here, with a different English level, so unless you want to emigrate to another country, please just say what you have to say.
[H]

@William said:

Suppose someone creates an incredibly good faked legato, with harmonics and formants and all the associated acoustical elements correctly offset and shifted, etc. Someone else will still come along, and incorporate a true legato later on. And then what good is the fake?

This matter isn't black and white. The legato scripts have several advantages that the "real" sampled legato doesn't have.

The synthesized "fake" legato doesn't need more memory. The VSL legato instruments take a terrible amount of memory and with 32 bit computers you can't load very many of them. In a basic orchestral setup I run out of memory very fast but I have plenty of processing power left. Using synthesized legato would take some of the free processing power and give me a lot of memory space to load more instruments and articulations.

The synthesized legato can be added to any sample library afterwards. I wouldn't mind having scripted legato for EWQL RA or scripted VSL legato supporting all available dynamic layers. Herb just said that they are trying to use the available legato samples in four layer VI patches but that will take a lot more memory and it won't help the users without the new VI versions.

The synthesized legato is cheaper to do as there isn't need to record, edit and program all those legato samples. That should mean that libraries with synthesized legato can be sold cheaper and still make more profit for the producer.

The VSL sampled legato works very well with woodwinds and brass but not so well with strings. Most likely I'll start using a script with my VSL strings as soon as there is one available. I don't assume that the VSL woodwinds would sound any better with a script, most likely it's the other way around.

Of course there are disadvantages as well. You'll need Kontakt 2 which might or might not be a problem. For me it's my preferred sampler because of VSL's sampled legato scripts and a couple of nice pianos. There also might be some licencing costs or other issues if the script isn't written by the producer. And certainly the scripted legato can sound fake.

Most likely there are more pros and cons but these were the first to come to my mind.

Janila, well put.

@William said:

...If I am wrong about this, go ahead, correct me but I believe all this desperate desire for these samples is misplaced. It is not in the samples. You already have better samples. It is how they are used. I found that somewhat irritating, about the solo cello - the VSL solo cello is in no way inferior to this one. It is in the useage, not the samples.

William, I think a lot of people are disappointed with the samples, which is why Herb is doing the "Epic Violins".

Janila - good post.

I will go further.

Its_not_just_about_legato. This is what really gets me with all these posts and talk about samples. Legato works perfectly well at the moment with the old-style VSL library. Legato is important - yes, especially with strings. But all that is nothing if you don't have the TONE in the first place. It's the bloody TONE that's important.

Another as important, if not more so aspect of SOUND and TONE, is repetition. K2 scripting will surely be able to cope with that too. Writing in terms of SOUND and TONE is severely hampered without a workable repetition tool. Especially in the strings and brass. Two things happen when this is not available. (a) you waste inordinate amounts of time and (b) you give up and start writing to samples that are easiest to use. Don't anyone EVEN think about denying (b) because I hear it all the time in demos for every library, my own especially.

I'm sorry Bill, but the VSL cello and every other commercial sample library cello out there, is in every way inferior to the Bergenson one. It matters not about usage - it's the TONE.

I don't know how many more times this needs to be spelt out. All these tools are of no consequence whatsoever without the basic starting point of sound. TONE.

.....:it's the TONE.
....seems it's hard to understand. [H]

There is no arguing of how important TONE is. As good as the original HO's are - they pale in comparison to the newer Epic Horns. AND it is not just that there is twice the players. It's the tone of the Epic HO library that makes it just so good. In fact, I am certain that most would agree that the Epic Horns are the most 'alive' sounding library available from VSL.

I have the feeling that this library was labored over. Just my $.02.

Rob

@Rob Elliott said:

Epic HO

That sounds like a rap loving female with a remarkably grand rear end. [:D]

I totally agree with you guys about the tone issue as I already said in one post. I understand that commercial sample libraries have to work in every situation but that also means that they aren't perfect in any situation. I would love to have a string library where every note would ooze life and musicality even if I would run into problems when trying to connect certain samples together. So far no such library exists commercially. Sharmy and TJB seem to have just that and that's the reason why we are salivating.

Rob

Sorry,Dont mean to be facetious nor factitious. But I've been achieving that sort of strings effect and more using nothing but the old roland lush "All violins" patch in midi module world. No CPU or Ram constraints.

Although I'm impressed on how you can get the VSL team to react to a performance patch. Your hard work has rendered in multitude.

Please dont forget Mozart , Beethoven and others. Only VSL has provided the tools for. Thats alot to be thankful for.

Thank you

@R.K. said:

Rob

Sorry,Dont mean to be facetious nor factitious. But I've been achieving that sort of strings effect and more using nothing but the old roland lush "All violins" patch in midi module world. No CPU or Ram constraints.

Although I'm impressed on how you can get the VSL team to react to a performance patch. Your hard work has rendered in multitude.

Please dont forget Mozart , Beethoven and others. Only VSL has provided the tools for. Thats alot to be thankful for.

Thank you

OK, RK - you are on to me [:D]

When I need 'lush' strings I double my JV 1080 (Roland) synth with VSL (sometimes I'll use their 'expression' patch all alone.) Still has shelf life after 14 years!!!!! I can similarily get the same effect out of the Atmosphere strings. They both have their place and although somewhat limited in their use, when you just need that warm, rounded off strings sound - they do the job (with burying in the arrangement or excessive EQ).

Rob

Rob

1.Wouldn't be nice if VSL continued their hard ernst work into applicating the VI player and giving us unlimited tracks and samples to use on any computer. Their on the right track. Maybe oneday. Maybe the other programs will catch up. Which I think will happen in this pivot year. maybe they will incorporate Alex instead of TJ
samples creator (I hope thats his initials, respectfully)
2. Wouldn't it be nice if VSL give us a propreitary preamp/ambience warm plugin to match their digital samples. Although what we hear from the 24 bit samples sound great.

Have you checked out Spectrasonic symphonic voices or their vocal planet,
absolutly the best. they are a must. They can stand up at the same level as VSL.
Although they are a few years older, 16 bit.

I hope both of our wishes happens in our liftime.

best regards .

Yes and the amazing thing about Eric's (Spectrasonics) SOV is that it is at least 8-10 years old. That man has the 'golden touch'. I have yet to hear anything he has done for Roland or Spectrasonics that wasn't VERY useful in many different genres of music.

Rob

Unfortunately I lost Thomas Bergersens string demo named "1.mp3" and it's no longer on the server. This demo was so beautiful and so amazingly realistic. Does anybody have this demo or know another link?
Thanks

Shalom,
Justus

Shoot a mail and I can send it to you.

And yes, it's absolutly stunning! [H]

@Vagn Luv said:

Shoot a mail and I can send it to you.

And yes, it's absolutly stunning! [H]

Ooo-Ooo

Me, too? [H]

Just listened to it - Very nice piece.....quite wet though IMHO - hides a multitude of sins....but very very nice none the same - also goes with out saying (so I'll say it anyway [:D] ) - the writing is good - all these factors (along with the room noise - nice touch!) add up to fool the ear.

My partner and I (my partner is a recording engineer) have been experimenting with the whole realsim thing. When we get the strings in an ENVIROMENT (ie a room then a hall) obviously everything takes on a different perspective and we find that sometimes slipping in other string samples WITH the VSL library - sometimes eq'd to shit and tuned sharp - gives us that 'shimmer' that a real section has....solo the additional samples on their own and they sound awful!!! - but in the blend and with level rides etc - all starts to come together.

I am not saying ANYTHING bad about VSL - I love their products and they are the best I have heard....I am just saying at some point - when it comes to mixing the tracks you have programmed and you just need that little 'something else' - I say start experimenting, be bold and throw away the rule book.

Just my .02¢

[:D]

ThomasJ was also involved in helping VSL 'Epic Horns'. I don't know if you all saw the pics that were on this site (they still might be), but he was there [[;)]] .
From what I gather, strings must be the hardest samples to get the right expression and timbre (?). The private library that TJ, Simon, Maarten, Craig, etc...was done just in the right taste IMO.
The violin sordinos and cello section samples are exceptional. Sound as close to any dramatic soundtrack I have heard.

Is there an updated link to TJ's demo? It seems the link for his mp3 is no longer valid "Page Not Found". Sure would love to hear this demo. Thanks.