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  3. SATA Quad Hard Drive
  • G
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    @Jack Weaver said:

    Guy,

    There are some major differences. Generally speaking, SATA is around 3-4 times faster than FW400 and 1.5-2 times faster than FW800. Additionally eSATA external cabinets allow easy integration with a G5 (or other computer) and if you choose to RAID the drives you can greatly increase throughput beyond those basic figures I quoted.

    FW drives will however allow you to put your drives at a further distance from your cpu, as external SATA drive cabinets almost always use a 1 meter cable - beyond that there are possible bandwith limitations. In most cases you will need a SATA PCI-X card in a PCI slot to host this external cabinet.

    There are several manufacturers of eSATA external cabinets, including Wiebetech, Firm Tek and Transintl.

    Best regards,
    Jack


    Thanks very much Jack.

    So can we say they both basically serve the same function? Could it be like comparing 2 different models of cars? From what I understand Sata is more advantageous for G5, right?
  • J
    J
    Guy,

    Sure, they do the same basic things - record, store and playback files. SATA has greater throughput and should give you greater recall speed of instrument samples. They would be a boon to anyone used to using FW drives for VSL.

    The only thing faster would be a 2 Gigbit Fibre Channel PCI adapter card with Fibre Channel drives. However, the main reason not go that path is that the card and especially the drives are so espensive. Mainly it's the drives that are the problem because they are like slightly more expensive SCSI drives and have a serious size limitation. You would need several of them to hold VI alone.

    So in my estimation external SATA is the way to go. My plan is to give the cabinets that hold four 500 GB drives and do a RAID 1 striping. With this method I can have VI and the rest of VSL and other samples on one pair and all these would be automatically mirrored (backed up) on the other pair. I recently had a LaCie Big Disk (500GB) go bad on me wih all my VSL and some of my other samples and it was an absolute nightmare for two weeks. I never want that to happen to me or anyone else again.

    My specific references to the G5 were because I use one and from your previous postings I am under the impression that you have one also. What I said about G5's also goes for other computers - except for the new dual core, dual processor G5's since there are currently no manufacturers that I'm aware of that make PCIe cards for eSATA solutions.

    Now, if you plan to go this path please be prepare to sacrifice a PCI slot for the adapter card. I have a Pro Tools HD Accel2 that uses up the two other available PCI slots so going this direction means that there will be no going back for me. So I intend to implement this solution after NAMM and I see what all is going on with VSL (MIR), Digidesign, Logic and audio interface manufacturers. But as of now I'm emotionally committed to this as the best way to go.

    Best regards,
    Jack
  • J
    J
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    @Jack Weaver said:

    Guy,



    My specific references to the G5 were because I use one and from your previous postings I am under the impression that you have one also. What I said about G5's also goes for other computers - except for the new dual core, dual processor G5's since there are currently no manufacturers that I'm aware of that make PCIe cards for eSATA solutions.


    Best regards,
    Jack



    Try this http://www.highpoint-tech.com/USA/rr2320.htm

    Julian
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    one more time ... be warned ... raid controllers behave different. even the Xraid has to be configured to give you best throughput for streaming (this has to be done after every start using terminal i've been told).
    usually they try to cache the whole file (or as much as they can) which gives you a good result eg. for video streaming.
    our needs are different: we need little portions from many files simultaneously (this is also true for EXS btw).
    whereas i noticed good results with onboard sATA raidcontrollers, the external enclosures performed not so convincing.

    raid 01 (striping & mirroring) as jack mentiones is the most reliable configuration, raid 5 (possibly with a hot spare) is also very reliable.

    try to get real-worldâ„¢ results if you can and don't rely too much on performance numbers on a datasheet (without specifying which method was used to measure performance) ...
    christian
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • J
    J
    Guy & Julian,

    Please note that hardware RAID contollers (as in the the above link) are a different beast than software striping. They can be a nightmare.

    What cm refers to is that in video, high speed throuhput for streaming long, continuous files is the need of the hour. What is more necessary for audio is accessing little (discontiguous) files spread all over a disk, or disks. One thing that would be nice for SATA drives would be higher rotational speeds, i.e., 10,000 or 15,000 rpm. Typcially SATA drives are 7200 rpm.

    Thanks cm.

    Best regards,
    Jack
  • G
    G
    Thanks all!

    To not make this too vague for you, here's my gear and other:

    -G5 Quad, 6.5 GB RAM
    -1st internal drive 250GB
    -2nd internal drive 500GB (being installed)

    -Logic Pro

    -VSL Pro Ed and Perf Set
    -VI Library

    -Redmatica

    What the minimum requirement I need to work comfortably? No Lacie, thanks! [[;)]]

    Oh, it's for film music, of course...
  • J
    J
    Guy,

    Well, you already have a second internal 500GB SATA drive. That can hold VSL. If you wish to keep everything at SATA speed simply get an external SATA drive (or drives) solution from one of the various reliable manufacturers and use it to hold VI as it becomes available. Make sure that it is an expandable system.

    Away you go! It sounds like a great system.


    Best regards,
    Jack
  • G
    G
    Jack, thanks!

    So my 2nd drive 500 MB will hold all my VSL.

    I presume I should get a SataRaid 2 or 4 drives in which one will hold VI. So far is that right? And since VI is about 500GB then the drive will have to be 500GB?
    Or something like that? [*-)]
  • M
    M
    Did some research and decided to purchase two LaCie external SATA hard drives. Each drive is 250GB (but larger configurations can be obtained), and each come with a PCI card to plug into an available PCI slot in the computer (I happen to use Mac G5). Two hard drives can run off of one PCI card, and each drive can be powered by the internal drive power wires within the computer. *Much* faster than my older Firewire 800 drive, and stiping as Raid-0 (easy with Apple's included software) makes it that much faster. No room in the computer for more *internal* SATA drives, so this seemed a good choice. I've used many LaCie drives in the past and have not had trouble with them (I have no connection to LaCie). Here is a review of the LaCie (the review is a little older- prices have come down since the review was published): http://www.creativemac.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=32842
  • G
    G
    Just a footnote on the Lacie: I know you're not suppose to put in the middle of your studio, but why do they make them so they're so easy to tip over? And when that happens that could seriously damage it! I've witnessed this several times.
    I had the experience of having a Lacie overheat and thus had to wait 10 days before getting it back from the repair shop. I was lucky I wasn't in production then! I guess it depends on the continuos time you spend on it for it to overheat. So in my case it's heatville! Not for me... What about an external Sata raid system, can you have problems with that?
  • J
    J
    Guy and mdfmuse,

    Please don't misunderstand me, I really didn't mean to be down on most LaCie drives. The LaCie Big Drive I had was a special case where they offered two 250GB drives in one cabinet that used a RAID 0 configuration. That was their shakey product. I have two of them on the shelf as a testament to my poor purchasing decision. Generally most people I know have had good luck with their individual drives.

    You might want to check the VSL Forum archives as I believe that the compressed format in which VI will be delivered actually is closer to about 350GB. Perhaps cm can chime with an authoritative figure on this. You might be able to get by for a while with one drive. However getting two would be a better way to go.



    Regarding the tipping over issue, I placed the LaCie drives flat on a table with rubber spacers below and between them to allow for adequate airflow. They run a bit hot.
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    sorry, no authoritative answer right now ... but the average compression rate should be 65%, so ending up with 350 GB (real size, not palliated harddrive size figure) sounds realistic.
    christian

    btw: i never understood why the LaCie BigDrive doesn't come with a fan - they get really hot actually when simply copying files on them ....
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • G
    G
    Can anybody explain to me what's a Raid 0? (Stripping and mirroring) I see there's Raid 1,2,3,... When I look it up it's often so technical that instead of learning the term, I end up with 3 things I don't understand! [*-)] [*-)] [*-)]

    Thanks, (consider it as charity work [:D])
  • J
    J
    Guy.

    RAIDing drives is the way to make more than one drive appear as a single drive. These drive groupings can also be made into smaller partitions called volumes.

    It is done with software in just a few clicks. There is software already resident on your G5 that will allow you to do this. There is also another product for Mac called softRAID that is a bit more elegant. Also, chances are that whatever hardware solution that you purchase will have their own RAID software and should come with detailed instructions on how to do this.

    RAID level 0 is when you stripe two or more drives and use them as one larger, and ususally faster drive. The only problem with this configuration is that if (or probably when) there is a failure of one of the drives you most likely lose all the information on the drive set.

    RAID level 01 occurs when you stripe two or more drives to act as one and simultaneously mirror (duplicate) their activity with an exact hardware copy of the first set of drives. In other words, if you use two hard drives for your first drive set (which need to be entirely identical hardware) you need two more entirely identical hard drives for your mirror set and they will become clones of whatever is on your first set of drives. In the event of catastrophic failure of your first drive set you will probably have to relink your VSL and VI instruments to the data on the mirrored drive set.

    For your purposes, I would not spend anytime trying to wrap your brain around the other RAID types. For safey you might want to find a local Mac technician when your drives arrive to help you install the SATA PCI card and create the RAID striping.

    However, since cm has pretty much confirmed that VI will sit comfortably on one 500GB drive - you don't necessarily need a RAID configuration. This will simplify your life and be easier on the pocket book.You still might want to get two drives simply to make a backup clone of your VI samples.

    Always remember to have your drives no more that 85% filled with data - individual or RAIDed.

    Best regards,
    Jack
  • J
    J
    I fell across this whilst searching on the net http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/raid/index.htm it has a comprehensive coverage in not too difficult language of all the benefits/pitfalls of all the various raid systems. Good bedtime reading!!

    Julian
  • G
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    @cm said:

    one more time ... be warned ... raid controllers behave different. even the Xraid has to be configured to give you best throughput for streaming


    Hi Christian,

    I use a Kano Tech (super-quiet) external 4 drive SATA rack for all my sample libraries, but they are not setup in any kind of RAID. They are JBOD (just a bunch of disks). So far, things are really working well, but are you suggesting that I should try a software RAID with these disks? I've always understood that for sample streaming RAID may not be the best solution, however, manually distributing the libraries across 4 drives as I've done may not always be a match for a particular orchestration. Maybe a certain piece uses many samples only from a single drive. For this reason I'm asking if I'd be better off with a RAID setup. What do you think?
    Thanks,
    Gary
  • G
    G
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    @Jack Weaver said:

    However, since cm has pretty much confirmed that VI will sit comfortably on one 500GB drive - you don't necessarily need a RAID configuration.


    Jack -- I think that although the entire library will FIT on a 500GB drive, you'd be putting that single drive through the wringer trying to make it access and spit out enough samples for a large orchestration. (CM -- please correct my if I'm wrong.) Maybe one of the newer drives with a 16MB cache, but I would doubt it.
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
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    @Another User said:

    ... but are you suggesting that I should try a software RAID ...[code:1:889ac70fec]
    gary, no i'm not (assuming your rack is connected via FW800 or actually sATA) - i've just noticed it is more performant in most cases as a (usually cheap) hardware raid, because of the special demands of audio streaming.

    i'd say software raid adds 3-5% load to the system - so if you need just these 5% performance (for an additional instance of VI, for some other plugin) the software raid would be contraproductive.

    to spread a library *right* across multiple drives can be tricky and depends of course also on the type of performance you have to arrange.

    the most significant value for a drive is IMO the average seektime (for our needs), thats why NCQ (found with SCSI and some sATA) is the superior thechnology when we look at sampling.

    christian[/code:1:889ac70fec]
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • G
    G
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    @Another User said:

    ... but are you suggesting that I should try a software RAID ...[code:1:7fb1e74b40]
    gary, no i'm not (assuming your rack is connected via FW800 or actually sATA) - i've just noticed it is more performant in most cases as a (usually cheap) hardware raid, because of the special demands of audio streaming.

    i'd say software raid adds 3-5% load to the system - so if you need just these 5% performance (for an additional instance of VI, for some other plugin) the software raid would be contraproductive.

    to spread a library *right* across multiple drives can be tricky and depends of course also on the type of performance you have to arrange.

    the most significant value for a drive is IMO the average seektime (for our needs), thats why NCQ (found with SCSI and some sATA) is the superior thechnology when we look at sampling.

    christian[/code:1:7fb1e74b40]


    Christian -- not sure I a understand what you mean. (BTW, I have a SATA card connecting my 4 drive rack). I understand you do not prefer software RAID, but are you saying that a hardware RAID is better than manually spreading the library across 4 drives. Also, what is NCQ? Thanks.

    Gary
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    gary, sATA drives connected via sATA is a very good solution - i'd say no need to experiment with software raid.

    NCQ is Native Command Queuing (aka Tagged Command Queuing) - a technology originating from SCSI.
    in a nutshell: if the operating system (OS) requests data (say portion A-B-C-D, 512 bytes each) which resides in different sectors of the harddrive NCQ can re-order the requests (say to B-D-A-C) to minimize the movement of the heads (in the harddrive) - this reduces seektime to the half (average 8,5 ms to 4,5). this happens in the interface sitting on the harddrive itself.

    a hardware raid makes only sense, if you can be sure it does not try to cache files (and so effectively reducing your performance) and also uses NCQ _and_ an intelligent read-algorithm.
    my example here:
    IBM expansion unit SCSI 160 drives, i5 controller, raid5 = ~20 MB/s
    EONstore (sATA drives to SCSI), 39160 controller, raid 5 = ~120 MB/s

    your sATA drives should give you around 60 MB/s and i'd assume you will not reach this limit with any arrangement, especially if the (instumental) sections are spread across several drives. sATA I (the bus itself) is 150 MB/s - capital B means Bytes

    christian

    christian
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.