tele, it will be very interesting to track the result, although unfortunately the question itself is not valid. you cannot upgrade from opus 1 to the first edition, you cannot upgrade from solo strings to saxophones and there is no upgrade path neither from a VSL sample library to a virtual instrument standard nor from apples to pears.
in your case there _is_ an upgrade path from horizon chamber strings to virtual instruments chamber strings full - it costs 525 EUR and your discount is 565 on the full price of 1.090.
please compare the existing and new content as well as the different content of the standard and extended library - things should become obvious then
christian

ps: i can't remember who said it, but - to get the right answers you have to ask the right questions ....

@PaulR said:

Tele

What you have to understand is this. In business, there is no such thing as fair or unfair. There is profit and there is loss - neither of which is fair or unfair.

I understand that you and I and everyone else wants to pay less for everything in the world.

For instance, I pay council tax of £185 per month. For that I get my bin emptied once a week and there is a street light somewhere. That's just one bill I and everyone else here has NO choice in paying.

You could of course get VSL to cave in and take the view that they have not done their financial homework with regard to working it through with their financial consultants - ie bank, accountants etc. So they could cave in and give us what we want for 10 pence and then go out of business and then you and I would be moaning about the loss of a forward thinking company. And that goes for EW and any other company out there that makes sample libraries - or any widget. I've seen in my old career. more companies go down through cash flow problems, than any other reason.

VSL is going to pay your council tax? that's pretty cool!

@Another User said:

Ich möchte fairerweise ergänzen, dass sich mein "Wiederspruch" nicht auf alles und jedes bezieht. Nur darauf, dass es keinen Upgrade/Sidegrade von VSL Chamber Strings zu der Chamber Strings Standard Edition gibt.
Der Upgradepreis zur vollen Version, Complete Edition is sehr fair.

tele

Still, my opinion remains, there is a missing path for me to the standard edition. [;)]

tele

@Another User said:

tele

Still, my opinion remains, there is a missing path for me to the standard edition.

Are you telling us you're the missing link?

I never would have guessed.

@hermitage59 said:

Are you telling us you're the missing link?

Did you understand it that way?

tele

@Another User said:

ps: i can't remember who said it, but - to get the right answers you have to ask the right questions ....

It's very intersting to see that the quota here is much different from the quota at KVR. This one here seems to be more representative for the VSL user base.

Maybe I should have chosen other words for my poll, like
Question: Would an upgrade path from Chamber Strings Horizon to Standard series be adequate?
Answer1: No, this would not be an upgrade, since it's apples and pears [:)]
Answer2: Yes, an upgrade path to the Standard Edition would be adequate.

We could do a new poll with a choice of your own words on the topic, I don't believe the result would be very different. [[[;)]]] (As long as you'd stick to the topic and not ask "who is the best looking actor in the world" [+o(] )

tele

Tele,

I have pretty much mixed feelings about the upgrade and the VI. But I think the explanation you gave on KVR might be confusing. (It is the Full version of Chamber Strings or Solo Strings - as the complete Lib I would consider the cube itself)

Another point towards Chamber Strings or Solo Strings - there were the most complete thing VSL and anybody else could offer for solo- or chamber strings (Solo Stings was more complete as Pro Edition in this domain) - so for me it is completely acceptable, that the upgrade goes to the Full version of those libs.
One could argue if he needs the samples of extended or not - ... Did I always need all the samples of Solo Strings (I mean ALL of them) - it was always nice to have them for the case...

My more critizing points I have told a few times now - so I do not want to add them again. It is generally concerning the users of Horizon Opus, Epic Horns, French Oboe, WW ensemble, etc.
I think Herb and VSL is already reconsidering a Opus VI and maybe they will also reconsider individual instruments.

Best,
Steff

@steff3 said:

Tele,


My more critizing points I have told a few times now - so I do not want to add them again. It is generally concerning the users of Horizon Opus, Epic Horns, French Oboe, WW ensemble, etc.
I think Herb and VSL is already reconsidering a Opus VI and maybe they will also reconsider individual instruments.

Best,
Steff

This is based on assumption of your own POV, and those few who may be like minded. Since last saturday, for as many posts that have banged on relentlessly about the unfairness, implied scam, etc. there have posts from more people interested in this brand new product. What IS fact is the large number of posts by those few who want to try and force VSL to change their business model, and the realtively few posts from a greater number of people who like the product and the potential it offers.

If you then try and tell me that you like the product buit think it's overpriced, and you still want a discount, then you will confirm a belief many may have that you want it but can't afford it, and this is your way of trying to change that in your favour.
The decision to buy is yours, the price is there in front of you, you can see what the product has to offer, and so the decision is yours to make, not VSL's to compensate for your lack of income, or other reason you may have to continue this resentment.
I don't imply any ill will in this, but i am saddened at this continued flogging of a dead horse. It just seems to imply satisfying ego rather than valid constructive intelligent debate.

Tele, if there's one thing i find singularly irritating, it is polls run by people trying to reinforce a worn point. By running a poll at this stage after the 'dust has settled', you imply to me that you're determined to tarnish VSL's reputation in any way you can, regardless of the consequences to other users. you give little consideration to the impact on others who may be considering a purchase and are undecided which way to jump. Polls like this are decidely tacky, and lack class.

I don't like your smartass answers, not because you're not entitled to make your point, but you don't actually offer anything new or constructive, just the same implication that VSL are robbing you of something, and are capable of doing this in the first place.
If you actually assume VSL would think this way, try starting a poll damning the product at EW. You wouldn't last 5 minutes.

No doubt you will continue to push this, trying to make it as public as possible in your favour.
I suspect fewer and fewer will listen.

Of course, you're pretty pissed off after you hear the announcement. But then you realize how the world is and peopole will do what they have to do to make some money....

I'm just hoping that VSL remembers something about customer loyalty down the line...

@Beaswax said:

Of course, you're pretty pissed off after you hear the announcement. But then you realize how the world is and peopole will do what they have to do to make some money....

I'm just hoping that VSL remembers something about customer loyalty down the line...

This is only my opinion, but i think customer loyalty has never been absent from the VSL business model. And the 'pissed off' bit as you so eloquently put it, was a result of looking only at the price, and not what you got for your cash. The step VSL took was always going to be challenging, and the discounts offered compared to other products and customer bases have been fair.

When eveyrone's up and running, and taking advantage of this amazing new technology, it will be interesting to see if users down the line remember the generous (IMHO) package VSL offered.....................

Alex.

Without exception, friends' reactions to VS's VI 'upgrade' policy have been strongly negative, ranging from "unacceptable business practice" to "bordering on fraudulent". This is from people who are actively engaged in IT.
I, too, feel somewhat bruised by VS's recent behaviour, and understand that it hurts more precisely because VS had - until now - been exemplary; the disappointment is deeper.

Well put Michael - a lot of what VSL were selling was 'trust' - put your trust in us, you have made a wise investment, upgradeable at a fair price. They have broken that trust and made the product very exclusive instead of being expensive but mainstream. they have lost the trust of many an ordinary punter who could just about manage the prices of the first and pro editions.

@Beaswax said:

Of course, you're pretty pissed off after you hear the announcement. But then you realize how the world is and peopole will do what they have to do to make some money....

I'm just hoping that VSL remembers something about customer loyalty down the line...

This is only my opinion, but i think customer loyalty has never been absent from the VSL business model. And the 'pissed off' bit as you so eloquently put it, was a result of looking only at the price, and not what you got for your cash. The step VSL took was always going to be challenging, and the discounts offered compared to other products and customer bases have been fair.

When eveyrone's up and running, and taking advantage of this amazing new technology, it will be interesting to see if users down the line remember the generous (IMHO) package VSL offered.....................

Alex.

I understand that VSL probably had to rejuvinate profit margins so they had to come out with a new product. I do feel as if this cube will save me more writing time. Time is money afterall. I'm just upset at the way that it's been presented. You feel like you're having the choice of being burned or being raked over coals..

I love the innovative technology and thought that went into this, but customer loyalty has to be factored into this...

hermitage59,

Well, thanks for your answer.

>>
This is based on assumption of your own POV, and those few who may be like minded.
>>
what is a POV? (personal opinion v...?)

I see myself in the middle. From your posts (now that the dust has settled...) you write your opinion in a way that implies that it is so, everybody thinks like that and that it is the only way of thinking. "You've spoken with good today, so tell me, what did he say?" This brief reply is about the same.
There are people who think and feel differently - if you cannot live with that - I am sorry for you.
Why do you need to put us (even if we are that few) in a corner and categorize us?

>>
If you then try and tell me that you like the product buit think it's overpriced,
>>
I am not trying to tell you - I mean, specifically you - anything. And I certainly do not try to convince you of anything, because I found your other post pretty much militant pro VI. I am expressing my opinion. With you I have the feeling that you try to influence the others - if it is not possible with raving, then you let follow post like that I currently reply to.

>>
and you still want a discount, then you will confirm a belief many may have that you want it but can't afford it, and this is your way of trying to change that in your favour.
>>
Well, have you read my whole post (I mean from what you copied a part).
I do not want a greater discount, I would like that products like the VSL French Oboe or Epic Horns are not discontinued - because indeed, spending 3 times the price I spend on the original Horizon libs just to get a updated VI version that include French Oboe and Epic horns seems pretty much unjustifiable.

>>
I don't imply any ill will in this
>>
Sorry, but to believe that I think your post is a little too personal and too militant. But well, I dared to say something different after you made the final conclusion for everybody in your "now that the dust has settled" post. What shoudl I expect.

It is not up to you, hermitage59, to convince anybody, and with your way of communication to might be even not easy. It is further not up to you to reflect or discuss my reasons, especially not in the way you do.

I did not reply to your other posts, I think you can figure out why when you read my reply above. If you feel the need to reply to a post of me ever again - please do it on a more open, less militant way. Thanks

All the best

@michael_maberly said:

Without exception, friends' reactions to VS's VI 'upgrade' policy have been strongly negative, ranging from "unacceptable business practice" to "bordering on fraudulent". This is from people who are actively engaged in IT.
I, too, feel somewhat bruised by VS's recent behaviour, and understand that it hurts more precisely because VS had - until now - been exemplary; the disappointment is deeper.

Well all my friends think that it is a marvellous policy and that anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot!! See how easy it is to hide behind un-named friends?

Firstly, your friends will only know what you've told them, and it is easy to see where you're coming from.
Secondly, I doubt that any of them are experts in European law, so your borderline libellous statement has no authority.

As I see it, there are four elements in the VI package:

1) A new "intelligent" sample player
2) New samples
3) Old samples
4) Re-programming of old samples

I would imagine that your reaction comes from not wanting to pay for point 3. However, nobody has said that you are paying for these samples. How do you know that they are not free, much in the manner of the free content that comes with GS or K2? You don't, so therefore your percieved argument is fundamentally flawed. What is clear is that VSL is giving a huge discount for the Extended material, far more than any "old" content would warrant, and you also have a period of 30 days to try it out. If you don't like it, or think that you don't need it, then you don't have to pay for it. I can't think of any other sample company that allows this.

If you really have a problem with all this I suggest that you write to VSL and complain, rather than whinging on a public forum, so that we can all get on with discussing this exciting new product, rather than having our enthusiasm destroyed by a few naysayers.

DG

@DG said:

What is clear is that VSL is giving a huge discount for the Extended material, far more than any "old" content would warrant, and you also have a period of 30 days to try it out.
DG

I think a lot of the correspondence (and you have to admit there has been a lot of it!) can be laid at the door of the fact that VSL are not accounting for customers previous expenditure the way they have in the past.

The fact there is a new interface and it is 24bit shold not come into it, whatever this costs should be reflected in the purchase price for ALL customers not in a reduction of the discount for existing users. For example if the new cost of a symphonic cube was 10,600 euros and registered users of the pro-edition for example received a discount of 5490 euros (their original purchase price) There could be no complaints about the VIP price.

The Symphonic Cube extended contains all the samples of the pro-edition so one would expect (if VSL had maintained the spirit of "you never pay twice for the same sample") a full credit of the original purchase price against the cost of the Cube. Now if that means the price a VIP pays is not enough to cover the development of the new instruments then the total purchase price should be more not the discount less.

As the cost of the initial sample recordings, including the contracts with the musicians themselves, will have been funded fully, or to a great extent, by the purchasers of existing products, unless this is taken into account there is a strong argument that says current users are subsidising new purchasers of Vienna Instruments - to the extent that it would not be possible to retail the Symphonic Cube for €9200 unless this was the case!

Julian

Julian, I understand what you're saying, but the cost of SC (according to my discount) is not very far removed from this. Plus, I've had the use of the "old" content for the last year and a half.

DG

@DG said:

Julian, I understand what you're saying, but the cost of SC (according to my discount) is not very far removed from this. Plus, I've had the use of the "old" content for the last year and a half.

DG

Hey DG,

My discount Full Pro Edition up to Symphonic Cube is only 68% of the purchase price (€3790 discount, purchase price €5490) though a new purchaser of the pro-edition today will get 107% of their purchase price against a new cube - due to the holiday discount.

It's figures like these that i feel have been a leading cause of discontent.

Julian

@DG said:

Julian, I understand what you're saying, but the cost of SC (according to my discount) is not very far removed from this. Plus, I've had the use of the "old" content for the last year and a half.

DG

Hey DG,

My discount Full Pro Edition up to Symphonic Cube is only 68% of the purchase price (€3790 discount, purchase price €5490) though a new purchaser of the pro-edition today will get 107% of their purchase price against a new cube - due to the holiday discount.

It's figures like these that i feel have been a leading cause of discontent.

Julian

Are you including Extended content in your percentages? I can't understand Euros (+ I don't know where the key is on my computer!).

How much value do you put on the time that you've already used the samples for?

I'm afraid that I don't see software licences as an investment of any sort. To me, an investment is something that I expect to increase in value in order to make a profit, and no, I don't have any! There are many business examples of software that requires a monthly fee in order to work at all, so I think that all music software companies are giving us a good deal on this one.

I also think that people forget all the free upgrades (I'm thinking of the GS art files and K2 scripts) and extra instruments that we have been given in the past. I think that maybe Herb should think of charging a fee for these in future [:(]

Anyway, I'm convinced that those people who choose to buy SC will find that it totally changes their working methods for the better and those who don't can work in the same way as they always have, so they've lost nothing.

DG

Are you including Extended content in your percentages? I can't understand Euros (+ I don't know where the key is on my computer!).

How much value do you put on the time that you've already used the samples for?

I'm afraid that I don't see software licences as an investment of any sort. To me, an investment is something that I expect to increase in value in order to make a profit, and no, I don't have any! There are many business examples of software that requires a monthly fee in order to work at all, so I think that all music software companies are giving us a good deal on this one.

I also think that people forget all the free upgrades (I'm thinking of the GS art files and K2 scripts) and extra instruments that we have been given in the past. I think that maybe Herb should think of charging a fee for these in future [:(]

Anyway, I'm convinced that those people who choose to buy SC will find that it totally changes their working methods for the better and those who don't can work in the same way as they always have, so they've lost nothing.

DG[/quote]

My upgrade allows 68% of my initial purchase price against whether dollar, euro or pounds against the cube.

Pro Edition cost €5490 discount allowed €3790
£3660 discount allowed €2529
$ 5990 discount allowed €4560

I do agree I have had previous use of the library but upon upgrade the complete pro edition becomes from my point of view totally redundant - it can't be sold or lent and all it's functions have been replaced by the Cube. Therfore all its value has to be realised in the upgrade discount. Now, it is here there has been the sea change from a 100% upgrade valuation as previously given by VSL for the upgrade path to a 68% valuation now offered.

VSL is a great company, customer service I have encountered has been industry leading, their product is the best. The only millstone round their neck is previous corporate statements "you never pay twice for the same samples" I would guess that to a large number of users (not everyone!) VSL's interpretation of this in the VI upgrade is not in line with their own understanding of the promise.

Julian