long, low, gutteral growl, with just a touch of fang showing...

I guess I understand. Bit of a bummer, though.


J.

Jbm,
There is a bright side though. For that brief solo within the orchestra, you could use your current solo product.
And for that killer Bruch violin concerto type sound the new VI solo instrument could really give your work a lift, and set it above others!

Regards,

Alex.

paulhenrysmith, that was an exceptional post.

We are in a world of downward affiliation. Logic is forced to the masses (Garageband). Sampler orchestras are being thinned and popularized (Garritan Orchestral Library). Once exclusive equipment is being broadened (Pro Tools HD). This is more than technology -- it is a deliberate market strategy aimed to lower level users, a market not of professional need, but of discretionary income.

And VI is a definitive step away from all of the above.

Trouble is, it's the great unwashed (or perhaps, the less washed) who tend to post here.

I don't imagine many A list composers or production houses are eager to log on to this forum and talk to Plowman. But I do imagine A list composers and production houses will uniformly acquire VI because its ease of use is, for them, a necessity.

And the consequent of these truths is, the hew and cry from the forum is loud but not resonant, obvious but not representative of the core customer. I didn't say the loyal customer, the supportive or vocal customer, the helpful and perceptive customer who contributes so often here. I said the core customers, folks who are generally invisible to our discussions.

For this shining moment, VSL has no peer. VSL knows it, and that's why the price is what it is. paulhenrysmith is absolutely right: this is a business model. And it's a very shrewd model. It would have been shrewd even if the Symphonic Cube was just more samples. Now add to it a proprietary engine that further inhibits the theft of sounds. And tack on an implicit reward for first time users.

What irony. As jbm comments on the obsolescence of samples, we are reminded that we'll never have to pay for the same sample twice. No... I guess we won't.

The technology is the future. The business model is as old as gold.

Lets talk about A list composers without mentioning names....most of them (at least here in LA) do NOT use VSL...they are in the nice position of recording every score with a real orchestra - so the mockups need to sound good enough for the producers/director to approve ...for that, you don't need VSL.

I know of a specific one that works off of one G5 with its custom Orch library (total of 10GB) - no VSL, no SISS, no EastWest...the reasoning - they are all too big and would need multiple computers to run on, he doesn't like the hassle and desires to work on one machine...most scores can be realized with a few patches per instrument group - the producers don't hear the difference between the legato tool or simply an old fashioned played in string line (because they listen for the score and how it supports their drama) - or lets say, they might hear the difference but it is not crucial - crucial is if the music works or not so its a different kind of listening...its not "is that real or not ??"

the new VI is therefore not aimed at that audience....but aimed at those (or should be aimed) who work on TVshows/Jingles/low budget movies/low budget videogames/Cartoons and don't get to record their music with real cats and have to provide real sounding material.

Pricing should be accordingly.

Alas!!!!!! Thor,... Someone who recognizes what's going on and articulated it better than I or anyone else for that matter.

Most A list composers and orchestrators I know don't use VSL. I can verify that.

I'm Gone, For real this time.

Plowman,

This "downward affiliation" you speak of is an excellent way to phrase it. I find that the entire music industry is shrinking in production value, wanting content for rock-bottom prices. From a writer's standpoint I can't seem to charge what I believe I'm worth because:

1. Producers know that we can do more with less and do it faster. The tools are cheaper than ever before so they offer us less and we can take it or leave it. I interviewed for some work for Funimation (the Dragonball-Z guys) and it was pathetic to hear their terms. I know one of the guys doing music for them and it is truly sweat shop conditions.

2. I can turn out a better product with VSL but it doesn't matter because some guy with GPO will low-ball me on turn-around time as well as price. They get the gig because the guys in charge know that the difference in quality doesn't matter. The guy I just mentioned above thought that my stuff sounded fantastic but he would never use VSL because it was so clunky next to his older (and much cheaper) samples.

Very frustrating.

Clark

I like to think of VSL as in the midst of a pole-vault. Right now, they've just let go of the pole and are soaring upward. Spanning the gulf between the low-quality, sweatshop music produced with samples and the high end A-listers that simply MUST use real orchestras.

Soon, VSL will be over the bar ... and the A list guys who have been avoiding VSL and using real orchestras will find themselves out on a limb without the talent or experience to get the music done with VSL. On a limb because their bosses will begin to realize that they can save a lot of money (be more profitable) by getting the same or better musical performance for their films using a VSL-powered orchestra, paying a lot less money.

The mad scramble when that occurs will include those A listers frantically boning up on VSL while at the same time dissing it as loudly as possible to their bosses. (Expect unions to weigh in against VSL, too.) And us VSL "experts" swooping in to do the work ... and make films more profitable (even if only by a wee amount, right guys?) ... Of course, you know that the A-listers ARE actually boning up on VSL now, because they know what's coming. They're just not ready to admit it

It will be very interesting, no doubt.

Just as we complain about the crappy production values of those using GPO for TV music, those A listers will complain similarly about the VSL users when they start to dominate the orchestral flim music market.

I look forward to watching the debacle/triumph/whatever over the next 8 months.

- Paul Smith

@paulhenrysmith said:

[...] Just as we complain about the crappy production values of those using GPO for TV music [...]

To keep things in perspective: GPO is a great product, made by a great guy. Highest respect for Mr. Garritan.

Yes, point taken about GPO.

I was using it as a shorthand, really, to mean "music produced with little regard for quality" and that is unfair to Garritan. Obviously, the VSL is susceptible to the same misuse!

In fact, I was just now looking at Garritan's up-coming solo violin demo videos. There are some really nice things about it, like the elimination of phasing problems when using cross-fades and the use of after-touch to control vibrato speed.

- Paul

@paulhenrysmith said:

Yes, point taken about GPO.

I was using it as a shorthand, really, to mean "music produced with little regard for quality" and that is unfair to Garritan. Obviously, the VSL is susceptible to the same misuse!

In fact, I was just now looking at Garritan's up-coming solo violin demo videos. There are some really nice things about it, like the elimination of phasing problems when using cross-fades and the use of after-touch to control vibrato speed.

- Paul

This will be Gary's first real BIG hit - sure of it!!!!


Rob

Yes, John Newton Howard is not puzzling through perf-rep keyswitches as we speak. But the orchestrators, techs, and sound designers around those composers are swimming in stuff like this.

So I'll change "A list" to "the established musical support structure of TV and film." Paul and I are still discussing a legitimate Brahmin caste within the community. That demographic has nowhere to go now but VSL, and they're marching in lockstep to NAMM with their checkbooks. VI prices make business sense, like them or not.

It is error to think "they" use orchestras and "we" use samples. Folks, "they" use both. It is a world of hybrids, particularly in post. We're not going to see a wholesale shift to sampled orchestras -- they're still not that convincing, no matter the progress that is being made. But VSL will continue to infiltrate the final master tracks of key scores.

Now, consider this emerging irony. Paul notes that "the A list guys who have been avoiding VSL and using real orchestras will find themselves out on a limb without the talent or experience to get the music done with VSL."

*But* VSL is only getting easier to use. It's actually asking less experience from us. A great many of us can whack and split and parcel out perf-rep, leg, alternating samples, with our multi-tiered environments and custom channel templates. Newsflash! Even THAT skill is less necessary than it was two weeks ago.

So our upper tier friends may not be on much of a limb when the product continues to get easier. We're no doubt ahead of that curve, but the curve is only getting flatter with the likes of VI.

We belittle GPO. A listers deplore VSL. So true. So very true. And, from another angle, GPO users claim that they can sound almost as good as VSL (when they'll buy it the moment they can afford it), and VSL users ask if we really need an orchestra (when we'll leap at any chance to get one).

"They get the gig because the guys in charge know that the difference in quality doesn't matter."

Absolutely. They can hear that it's better with VSL. But is it four thousand dollars better? And what twelve year old is playing a game thinking, "That bassoon release sounds a bit mismatched"?

So those of us in "cottage industry music" really take the brunt of the whole VI pricing structure. Our heart follows after the realism and ease of VI, but our wallets (and our clients) either presume upon the technology or choose not to value the quality.

@Plowman said:

... *But* VSL is only getting easier to use. It's actually asking less experience from us. A great many of us can whack and split and parcel out perf-rep, leg, alternating samples, with our multi-tiered environments and custom channel templates. Newsflash! Even THAT skill is less necessary than it was two weeks ago.

So our upper tier friends may not be on much of a limb when the product continues to get easier. We're no doubt ahead of that curve, but the curve is only getting flatter with the likes of VI.

Very good point. Looks like we're heading for a day when the tools (whatever they may be) are so easy and inexpensive that there will be two things that matter for getting top film scoring gigs: 1 relationships and 2 artistic ability.

Maybe those interested in film music composition should all focus on developing skill in just those two areas ... wait two years, then buy VI 2008 to score the great gigs we'll be getting, instead of climbing up a steep learning curve now, only to be "obsoleted" in two years, and with no solid relationships/compositions to show for the time spent in front of a computer!

How many people are being hired now because they cut their teeth on the Synclavier and, ergo, must be really great with VSL, etc.?

- Paul

To clarify, I was using GPO as a general reference to inexpensive/budget libraries that contain a fraction of the variety of sounds and articulations that VSL would contain by comparison.

To be fair, pretty much every library released from Mirslav onwards has strengths that other libraries lack--even VSL has weaknesses that Sonic Implants Strings, as an example, will compensate for when used together.

Clark

It's not the size or the price of GPO that I criticize -- it's that insinuation (from users, not Gary) that it's generating a sound comparable to VSL. When someone says that, I know immediately that the nuance, variety and intervallic relationships of VSL are going unnoticed.

And I bring this up because, with VSL's price, we're going to see a tidal surge in ad copy like "affordable orchestra here, and you can't tell the difference from VSL." *Then* we're going to hear amazing demos from smaller libraries. But the demos will be written FOR the samples.

So the competitors will have an appealing price and great sounding demos. But the tail will still be wagging the dog.

Plowman,

Good point. As much as possible, I (and maybe we all) write to the strengths of the samples whether they are VSL or Advanced Orchestra, etc.

And speaking of Advanced Orchestra, their two little demos from 10 years ago still sound great and even better against some of the the GPO's demos (again, I am using GPO as an example--not trying to specifically make a target here). This is due to the fact that those demos used the runs, trills, rips, fx, trumpet staccato repetitions and all that in a way to draw the ear toward the strengths of the library. It limits what you can write in a big way, but if a composer is really clever with this game of "musical Tetris" then the end result is quite impressive.

The point I'm attempting to make is that with VSL there is less of this consideration and I can more freely write "pure music" instead of wondering if a given part needs to be changed because it sounds inappropriate with whatever samples I'm using.

Clark

"...if a composer is really clever with this game of 'musical Tetris' then the end result is quite impressive."

Musical Tetris. That's so perfect. Are the quotes for emphasis, or are you citing someone else? It's brilliant. And that is absolutely why ten year old demos can still sound good. It's also why demos from the standard repertoire are a better benchmark of sampling power.

Ad copy for the smaller libraries suggests that the hard part is making it sound like an instrument. But the hard part is making it behave like an instrument.

I've been writing to samples since my first Emax. I own the Pro Edition, and I'm still writing to samples. They're just much better samples. I was painting with blue on my first samplers. Now I'm painting with aquamarine, teal, and sky. But either way, there remains a finite number of colors on my palette.

I once wrote in a post of a wish list.

And the most important for me was the chance to to turn my symphonic work into reality. I don't have the programming skills of most of you, as i've spent my days playing writing studying etc. And doing stuff for other people has been by ear without a real knowledge of tweaking, sample manipulation, and all that stuff. I've used some sort of computer program for over twenty years, and if you asked me what automation was in logic, or how to configure it, i'll be honest. i don't have a clue.
But i do have a good set of ears, and the chance to write and go past much of the programming hassle is a powerful incentive. Now i'm on a very steep curve learning to write for film. If it wasn't for my pals and colleagues here, i wouldn't have got the last job done as quickly and well as i did. (Thank you Paul, Bill, Nick, Raw!)

The concept of why VSL and the new technology is important isn't lost on me in terms of writing for a living, and i enjoy the pressure of a deadline, and bringing pictures to life. But there is also an important place for the composer who will never get the chance to hear his stuff played live, however talented he may be.

I'm lucky to be working, for a couple of reasons, and I'm grateful for the chance to sit here in Moscow and study, work, and make enough to feed and house myself.
But, and this is the real potential of the new cube, VI, and great samples, i will get, after many years of waiting and refining, the chance to start putting my symphonic work in the box and bringing it to life.
And for all the talk about price, and how expensive the new package seems, i will work damn hard to buy, even if it takes me a while, because the lifelong dream of hearing 5 symphonies i wrote singing into life is reason enough.
I've waited a long time for a sample library to get up to the standard i wanted for my work, so i could do it justice, and at least know if i was capable or not, without being let down by the technology.

I'll be honest, if it cost 20,000 Euros, i wouldn't count the cash, but put my head down, work even harder, and create the chance to own, and i am a damn determined fellow when something is important enough.

Because the lifetime dream is a lot more relavent and fulfilling, than how much it costs.

Regards to you all,

Alex.

@hermitage59 said:

I once wrote in a post of a wish list.

And the most important for me was the chance to to turn my symphonic work into reality. I don't have the programming skills of most of you, as i've spent my days playing writing studying etc. And doing stuff for other people has been by ear without a real knowledge of tweaking, sample manipulation, and all that stuff. I've used some sort of computer program for over twenty years, and if you asked me what automation was in logic, or how to configure it, i'll be honest. i don't have a clue.
But i do have a good set of ears, and the chance to write and go past much of the programming hassle is a powerful incentive. Now i'm on a very steep curve learning to write for film. If it wasn't for my pals and colleagues here, i wouldn't have got the last job done as quickly and well as i did. (Thank you Paul, Bill, Nick, Raw!)

The concept of why VSL and the new technology is important isn't lost on me in terms of writing for a living, and i enjoy the pressure of a deadline, and bringing pictures to life. But there is also an important place for the composer who will never get the chance to hear his stuff played live, however talented he may be.

I'm lucky to be working, for a couple of reasons, and I'm grateful for the chance to sit here in Moscow and study, work, and make enough to feed and house myself.
But, and this is the real potential of the new cube, VI, and great samples, i will get, after many years of waiting and refining, the chance to start putting my symphonic work in the box and bringing it to life.
And for all the talk about price, and how expensive the new package seems, i will work damn hard to buy, even if it takes me a while, because the lifelong dream of hearing 5 symphonies i wrote singing into life is reason enough.
I've waited a long time for a sample library to get up to the standard i wanted for my work, so i could do it justice, and at least know if i was capable or not, without being let down by the technology.

I'll be honest, if it cost 20,000 Euros, i wouldn't count the cash, but put my head down, work even harder, and create the chance to own, and i am a damn determined fellow when something is important enough.

Because the lifetime dream is a lot more relavent and fulfilling, than how much it costs.

Regards to you all,

Alex.

Inspiring words Alex - watch out, with that attitude you just might realize your wildest dreams! [:D]


Rob

Go for it, Alex. Your passion and your kindness are an inspiration here.

I'd happily trade my years with sampling for sustained access to real musicians. I'm "book smart" when it comes to orchestra, but I have next to no practical experience with one. Yours is the better world.

Plowman,

Thank you for your kind words.

"Musical Tetris" is actually my name for it. That game got me in a lot of trouble back in college. I would play that game for hours on end.

Standard repertoire is definitely the acid test. I'll play the Debussy mock-up for people and they won't believe me that the whole thing is samples. These are computer musicians, too. Guys who own samplers and such.

And your point about making it behave like an instrument is dead-on. Hell, I've played pianos that are a struggle to make behave like an instrument. What a buzz-kill that can be.

Clark