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  4. Chords with Ensemble instruments

  • Chords with Ensemble instruments

    V
    V
    Hi! everyone...

    I finally got the Opus bundle!!!! And its soo big....I am still installing and trying out stuff. Its only the second day.

    I have a few questions thought. I am not trained in music so pardon me for my slightly less musically intelligent questions.

    Well...String sections play chords, right? So, how do you guys program stuff? I mean...if you want a violin section to play chords - how do you orhcestrate that? Cauz, in the library - you only have ensemble samples. How can I play chords with the samples within the Opus Bundle?

    I know, Epic Horns has a chords section. I have that. But, you guys must be layering sounds in the end - because not everything is possible with the ensemble samples

    So, how do you all orchestrate for such things? I have been using ensemble samples for chords till now. That will have more than 14 players!

    So...if someone can shed some light on that please..thanks...

    Regards,
    Tanuj.
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    Also, keep in mind that you generally have 1st and 2nd Violins in most orchestras....so you have more than 14 anyway! Also, Violas and Cellos don't hurt! And there's no rule saying you can't have 2nd Cellos too! Or 2nd Violas! But then you have to add more woodwinds and brass and then all hell breaks loose.

    -BW
  • H
    H
    Usually what I do is to have the 1st violins playing the top line melody, and the 2nd Violins replicate that melody but an octave higher ... as single note lines not dual or more.

    And then Violas play two lines for the top of the chords

    Cellos play usually 1 line that is the bass note of my chord. My chords typically being 4 fingured, so the Double bass then plays the lowest bass note.

    So in that way the Violas, cellos, and Double bass are playing a four fingured chord, and the violins, though you could call it a fifth line of the chord, play the top most line.

    For example. C major would be :

    Violas C4 and G3
    Cello E3
    Double Bass C3

    I guess everybody probably does it that way or similar... but I'm not fixed that way sometimes the violas have the top line. And then Clarinets, oboes, bassons tend to repeat what the chords are doing, .. with minor variations of course.

    Hope this helped.
  • M
    M
    While a lot of the statements in this thread could be true in some circumstances, I think there is some misinformation here, especially as it would pertain to guiding a beginner.

    Generally, the individual string sections do not play in chords, or divided (hence the term divisii). To form chords, the strings usually play individual lines that fall into the general ranges, high to low, of soprano, alto, tenor and bass, corresponding to 1st violins, 2nd violins, violas and cellos respectively. The double bass, if used at all, provides extra foundation either by doubling the cello line or independently.

    The difficulty with dividing strings is that the sections are formed to be in balance with each other. Thus dividing one section and not others weakens that balance. One difficulty in the example in the previous post is taking the smallest section and dividing it where the violins are massed in octaves on the melody/soprano. Both violins on the melody would duplicate and wipe out the higher viola part, and there would be very little carrying power in the alto, with the cello forced to take the tenor. The bass becomes particularly problematic in that, if it is sounding C3, it is in a very high, less favorable part of its register. But the bass sounds an octave lower than written, so if it is actually sounding C2, then the distance between it and the cellos exceeds an octave and is really too far to balance the chord well. In fact, the chord itself is outlined in closed voicing where and open one, vc = C2, va = G2, vn2 = E3, vn1 = C4 might be better (although the viola is a little low in its range, yet on the least functional note of the chord). Another weakness overlooks the fact that we tend to hear the outer voices, soprano and bass, more than the inner ones. So doubling the violins in octaves is not so much for strength (we’ll hear the melody just fine) as it is for color. Perhaps a different solution, if dividing a section was desirable, would be to have the second violins play the alto, violas on tenor and cellos on the bass, either doubled by (as the name implies) the double basses, and then divide the first violins in octaves on the melody. Obviously, I’m picking on the example a bit (and trust Hetoreyn that you will take it as constructive good cheer). In all fairness, the inclusion of winds (and brass) could balance his example just fine. The point is – especially in the beginning – to understand and write consistently for the strings as a section unto itself. Then as more experienced is gained, branch into more creative things relying on the strong foundation built earlier.
  • M
    M
    Hello Martin, I was very impressed by your reply. It holds true to what you have explained. I have to say, this was an excellent. Hope to read more like this, on VSL. True learning at its best.
  • H
    H
    Tanuj,
    I can understand your delight at purchasing a VSL package. And it would be tempting to use them all at once!

    Martin has given you a great set of examples to help you on the way.
    It's worth noting the following.
    In general, western classical music is based on 4 part harmony, in relation to your enquiry about chords.
    When you set out an exercise or piece, i suggest you use individual instruments first. (Single violin, Single viola etc.) This is for two reasons.

    The first is hearing just how the strings fit together as a group. for example, if you write the cello with notes on or above middle C, you are using the upper strings of the instrument, and they sound different to the lower stirngs. (The upper strings of the cello are generally considered to be the 'melody' strings, although in reality the cello has a great collection of subtle tones across the entire instrument)
    In general, particularly when you're starting out, it's good to set your harmony in the natural order of instruments. From the bottom up--Contrabass, Cello, Viola, Violin. For the purpose of an example, consider the contrabass as rested at the moment.
    So the 'bass' is Cello. The tenor is viola, the alto is second violins, and the soporano is 1st violin.
    It's not really a good idea at this stage to consider splitting the harmony further, for all the reasons that Martin so skillfully explained.
    It may be a good idea to refer to Horse Opera's thread entitled 'Berlioz Strauss treatise', in there you'll find some great comments from experienced composers, Martin, Dave Connor, Paul Robbins, etc. I've also incuded a couple of exercises that may help give you an idea of harmonic structure, and where to place instruments.

    Reason two.
    It's a lot easier to hear what's going on with individual instruments with reference to harmony. When you set up a chord, you can hear quite clearly what works and doesn't. Martin's point about divisi holds very true in this instance. splitting chords in a section weakens the balance of a section compared to the others. There is a reason why there are a balance of numbers in sections according to the dynamic overall. It takes a bit of experience and a lot of experimenting to balance divisi chords.
    So if you stick to one note per section for now, and set up your harmony with individual instruments first, when you have a good balance of pitch and harmony within your 'test quartet', substitute the individual instruments for sections, and you'll have a much better result to go on with. Harmony works best, in general, when it's 'clean', i.e. uncluttered with multiple additional notes. Too many notes in a harmonic block produces a grey sound, and cancels out the tone of the collection. (In general).

    Two books that are packed with useful information are
    Treatise on Instrumentation by Berlioz (and Strauss)
    Principles of Orchestration by Nikolai Rimsky Korsakov. (I consider this one a must in the orchestration reference library)

    Good luck, and i suggest you search this site thoroughly. There are many useful threads that will help and give you important clues in your quest for excellence.

    Regards,


    Alex.
  • P
    P
    Not that I care that much for so-called perceived reality when it comes to using samples - but, one of the worse things I can hear, is when a writer has obviously picked a patch with say, VSL violins - and then just plunked down a chord - as if playing a keyboard part.

    That sounds awful. This is one of the reasons I didn't understand the original question about playing string chords - I agree with Martin. His explainanation is the way to go. However, as an additive, what writers can do, to simplify some aspects of the string section as a whole - is to almost treat each individual section as a moving or static lead line. Not so much with the double basses obviously - that way you get a more moving, organic sound.
    If you want just basic string chord drones - then something like Atmosphere is good.
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    @Martin Bayless said:

    I’m picking on the example a bit (and trust Hetoreyn that you will take it as constructive good cheer). In all fairness, the inclusion of winds (and brass) could balance his example just fine.


    Well... can't say I'm not feeling a bit hurt here. I was only trying to help and tell of what I personally use. (If you hear my pieces would you say that they sound unbalanced). And I do include a huge portion of Woodwind and brass. But I was focusing on how to make chords with the whole strings section.

    Also the chord I sighted was an EXAMPLE!! not a chord I might use. I put down what I use to possible help 'vibrato' cos he wanted to know how to form chords with strings. I do know that the double bass wouldn't go on C3 ... rarely ever does it venture further up than C2 for bass notes..
  • M
    M
    Sorry to step on toes, Hetoreyn. Please know that my comments were constructively directed towards concepts and the example, and certainly not you or your music.
  • R
    R
    A really good way to learn and appreciate Martin's good advice here is to get hold of a few scores of works by established composers and see how the professionals do it. A certain basic knowledge of instruments, orchestration and general music theory is kind of important if you want your orchestra to sound like an orchestra and not just a hurdy gurdy. In fact, take said score and hone your VSL skills by playing in a few bars to see just how well it works. Studying real players and orchestras will give much insight into what works and what doesn't.

    VSL and sequencers in general are both a Godsend and a potential disaster area when it comes to artificially creating musical ensembles. Several of my students wrote their music GCSE (16 year olds) compositions using Sibelius and the built in sound card. With the little knowledge they possessed and virtually no guidance, their pieces sounded quite original but in a lot of ways, awful too. Ridiculous scoring, unplayable parts, lack of balance in harmony and texture.... That said, rules are there to be broken, and if everyone wrote the same way, nothing would sound any different.

    On a personal level, VSL has forced me to revisit "correct" part writing for strings at least. Where I used to limited to using the dreaded synth module string patch (sorry PaulR) I would not think too hard about lines, and rather play chords purely for speed. The increased time it takes to generate the arrangement now pays dividends in the overall sound quality and "realism" that we all strive for. Shame I can't pass all of the cost of time spent onto the clients. Maybe I should do 2 versions....one the old way, and one using the VSL strings and let them choose!

    Suck it and see!
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    @vibrato said:


    I have been trying out the Legato patches - And I have the Performance tool tutorial DVD. In that the person demonstrating (Cheif Engineer) is playing a Legato Patch where he can swtich off the Legato mode using the Mod Wheel. I could not do this with my legato patches included on Opus. Is this a function available for the Pro edition only or am I doing something wrong?

    Do you change the lines in the midi editor - those who have Opus to include the legato notes? Thats kind of difficult and might turn out less lively. Well..not so difficult I guess...I am new to this..

    neways...thanks all...and please do let me know about that legato thing.

    Thanks

    Regards,
    Tanuj.


    AFAIK you can't use the Mod wheel to switch off legato mode except except that you can change to a portamento (which is also legato) or a sustain. For these options (and others) you need to download the GS3 Art files from the user area.

    DG
  • S
    S

    Go ahead and use ensemble patches to construct chords! It's what the ensemble is for!

    Put another way, I get the sense that you are talking about using a SOLO instrument from each of the string sections to build a chord, right? So if we take a C major Triad ( consisting of, from top to bottom, G, E and C ) and do the following,  1st Violins = G ,  2nd Violins = E and Viola = C,  guess what?

    You will have a perfectly THIN sound all around, unless that's what you were aiming for, in the first place.

    But to get the full sound from your orchestra, that it deserves, ensembles of violins and violas are what's called for.

    If I'm getting the objective of your question wrong, please excuse me, but that's how it read to me.....
  • W
    W

    You're talking to somebody from 2005.  Long gone.  As I recall, he said that he was going to kick my sorry ass if I ever went to Mumbai.  
  • A
    A

    LOL

    I encountered this guy's music on YT a while ago while searching for VSL demos. His music sounds like Zimmer's...what I call 'thump thump' music. Its funny how the idea of "epic sound" has taken over even with people who have no idea what an orchestra is or have a knowledge of basic part writing. In fact I am starting to hate the word 'epic' associated with scores.  

    Its amazing that VSL is a tool for bollywood composers, an entirely different world compared to hollywood or western classical music. Practically none these bollywood people have any idea how to really compose for an orchestra or even an ensemble. To think that the tool they are using is the exact same thing that can make a Mahler Symphony....shuddering!

    It shows the 'power' of technology I guess.  
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    Oddly enough, I ran across Tanuj on YT not too long ago and wondered what happened to him.  It looked like he was giving advice on the proper use of sample libraries or something like that.  He had an impressive studio set up.

    Tanuj was a nice fellow but he tended to take himself and his music WAAAAAAAAYYYY too seriously. 

    If you're out there and still peeking in on the forum lighten up man 🌴🍺🍸 Life's too short.
  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on