Do all of us constitute a complete orchestra?

[hermitage59]

In this forum, it is noticeable that most regular contributors have something in common, the very honourable practice of sharing experience and information. Even the most experienced of us have something to learn in one skill or another within our composing 'toolbox', and input from others of a kindred passion can often help each of us to take a step further increase our potential. I know i've learnt much, and appreciate tips, ideas, philosophies from all, even if i disagree from time to time. It would be honest to say, most of you have contributed to my own knowledge with your input, and i am a better composer for it.

So my suggestion is this.
Many of us have played, and/or continue to play, instruments. And there are tips and tricks for each instrument that can't be gained from a book, or dvd, or any other source but experience and expertise. And i'm thinking about the difference between samples used from a player's point of view, and a computer musician's point of view. I say this not make a difference between the two, or in any way demean one or the other, but with a view to helping each other with 'finesse'. and a collective drive towards a more realistic end result. For example, I have experience in W/W, Percussion, Piano, and playing in large and small orchestral ensembles, but am woefully lacking in computer skills related to mixing, using specific plugins, or task designed software. (Just what is a NoiseGate?)

I wonder how many are willing to add to a list of sorts, or put their 'instrument' in view. If between us all we have close enough to an orchestra and the important computer and engineering skills required, our collective pool of information and experience could benefit us all.
We do this to a certain extent with the posting of threads and answers, but i'm thinking more of a general list that regular users could refer to.
This of course would require mutual participation, and many have their own projects and work to do, so i'm not suggesting any type of formal commitment that would take valuable time away from one's own music.
Alternatively, is it possible to include a line underneath our name and location that appears in the window, that can accomodate this?

Comments most welcome,

Regards to you all,

Alex.

[gugliel]

Interesting notion -- an objection might be that it gets to the heart of the problem with these internet interactions: it is really difficult to know just how right some of our/your/their answers really are. Speaking for myself only, over the past fews online years, I have occasionally given bone-headed advice that I later regretted and hoped did not ruin anyone else's life or music.

Still, a good idea. Once upon a time I played the flute pretty well, and I've been studying violin-writing forever; am good with gigastudio and understand harmony in a profound way no one else understands (smiley of the right sort here).

Sign me up: flute usage, violin but not as good as a real violinist, harmony, gigastudio.

[lgrohn]

I see no reason why users of samplers should try to emulate real players per se. Missuse of samplers can be very interesting: pianists having 12 fingers, piano glissandos etc.

[Martin Bayless]

This opens up an interesting notion. Although I'm primarily a keyboardist, I think there is something tactile/physical that forms and melds into a players sensitivities. For example, I used to do church work which can mean wearing a lot of hats. Organ (pipes, not Hammond; entirely different instruments), harpsichord, piano, and significantly here, choral direction, which I'll get to in a minute.

For example, there are several sampled organ libraries that attempt to capture its effect. The problem is, they can't be played like an organ for two reasons, the first because the ranks aren’t sampled individually. The second though is that it just doesn't feel right. It is a very weird sensation to negotiate a room's latency with when the pipes actually speak. The first time I had to work in a larger room, I spent a week practicing Bach fugues on just the rear gallery ranks about a hundred meters away from the console. There was a second or two of latency, and it played hell with my musical sensitivities until I learned to work in another dimension. One of my teachers used to say that organists who don't think in terms of playing a city block just don't get it.

There's something that ties in here because there is this zone or groove that happens when the player, the instrument AND the environment gel. It’s so important to understand the attachment of the player to their instrument, but also the detachment necessary to let the environment become part of it all. The choral direction idea may get closer to what we do with samples because there is a zone there too. Yes, it helps to know what a singer goes through, but a choral director's real job is to "play" a choir. But in that sense, there is no obvious tactile aspect of pressing a key down and getting a sound. There is an emotional connection that is important, but much like the room effect to an organist, you have to give up control to find the pocket where everything falls into place. Its there though and the greatest difficulty I hear in most mock ups or whatever you want to call them, is that the respect for the dynamics of control and abdication of that control are almost always missing. VSL is great in this regard because it provides the raw material to actually think and feel like a player. Obviously not in all situations, but enough to be musical. That part overlooked, everything just starts sounding like a big accordion.

In one sense it seems important to understand what an instrumentalist goes through, but it seems our job as a "director of samples" is to be able to find what would be the imaginary player's "zone" and work within it. In our case though, the zone isn't the player's but the samples themselves, along with room simulation, almost as if they both have a "life" of their own. If we aren't laying down each part in that groove (we're all laying down parts separately by now - and without quantization, aren't we? [:D]), it’s going to come haunting in the end.

But while I get the leap from instrumental performance and instrumental direction to the sampled orchestra, what leaves me baffled is just how to recapture the elusive synergy of players working together. I can lay down individual lines all day, but when I listen back, they frequently conflict until there are enough down to get a sense of the "performance," at which point I need to go back and redo the lines that aren't consistent. This is to suggest that it isn't enough to consider the instrument itself. I guess the irony here is the dichotomy between coming up with an intentional directed performance, but releasing enough control to accept it's random unpredictability. Is that our new zone?

[gugliel]

good comments, Martin -- particularly relevant for me is your point about the way live musicians interweave their interpretations (with each other, and with the resonance of the room, and with the audience, too, for that matter) as they perform, and how hard it is to make that up in a sequenced rendition.