@William said:

There is a big difference between "not conscious" and unconscious.

Yes, off course. But if an artistc creates something being "unconscious" doesn't it mean that he/she is is in some programmed state? Or are there some other possibilities?

Well, we are, in a very real sense, in "some programmed state" much of the time. But we are also capable of being completely otherwise at a moments notice! That's the exciting part. It is also probably why it IS possible to create a program that will compose like a bad composer (making obvious, or unimaginative decisions at each step). But it's very difficult (perhaps impossible) to create a program that will compose like a great composer. The scary fact is that we don't really know what makes a great musical decision great until it's already been made...
...and then we only figure it out by picking it apart like a bunch of computers!!! [;)]


J.

No one has ever picked apart what makes a good melody, or a great musical concept. It cannot be divided. It is an elementary particle.

Also, the number of people who explain consciousness grows by leaps and bounds every year. Not one of them has a ghost of a chance, and every one of them naively does the same thing:

re-describing it, not explaining it. To explain, one must get outside of a phenomenon. That is impossible with consciousness.

The person, oddly enough, who is most valuable is explaining the mistakes made by scientists who attempt to either explain or even (in some extreme cases) DISMISS (!) consciousness, is Ludwig Wittgenstein. Scientists are more naive about just how fooled their own brains are by linguistic thought processes than any of them would care to admit.

William.

1) Virtually every elementary music book has a chapter on "how to write a good melody". How can you even begin to claim this hasn't been done???? Every aspect of traditional, functional harmony was drummed-up through analysis of previously successful musical decisions... what exactly are you trying to say?

2) It sounds as though you haven't read the Edelman -- it is, as I said, an explanatory model for the (possible) neural foundations of consciousness. It is a model that works from a set of attributes traditionally associated with conscious experience, then goes about showing how neural processes can explain such attributes. Without reading it there's not much point in discussing it further...

3) ...particularly since you are clearly on nothing more than another tear into me and whatever it is I post that shows even slightest tone of disagreement with one of your edicts.

4) i was merely pointing out that this statement:

"no psychologist nor neurologist has the slightest idea of how to explain consciousness, let alone translate it into machinery"

...save for the "translate it into machinery" part, is simply untrue. You're all geared-up for a battle of science vs. philosophy, and I understand completely the problems you have with science. But it is naive to maintain that the development of a deeper understanding of how consciousness functions is possible without any acknowledgment of science. Science does have valuable things to add to the investigation, so to simply throw on the blinders and let consciousness be a magic trick, or the hand of God, is little more than an arbitrary, emotional, and reactionary stance.

"I also have "hobbies", JBM."

So why not actually say something to support your position? All you've managed to do is contradict me... Give us something to chew on.

J.

...Or maybe you meant to say "no one has ever _successfully_ picked apart what makes a good melody..."

That much is certainly true.

@Another User said:

and also on her/his ability to quantify, in some way, what it is they find interesting in music.

Depends. If one is looking for melody. Or harmony. Or just the atmosphere created. My own criteria is that there must be some interest in the first hearing.

But what is most interesting just on this forum is orchestration. One just can't imagine how big influence the orchestration has when using sw composer program. And even orchestration can be reused...

JBM,

I am not trying to tear into you! I thought this was a discussion. Is this supposed to be just agreement?

I have no problem with science. I was originally going to become a scientist and was "diverted" so you are quite off base there. Also - thanks for reducing my arguments to a repetition of cliche.

What I was saying on melody analysis was obviously the successful analysis. Yes, I have seen over and over the little theoretical discussions of the arc of a melody, etc. They all mean nothing. They are outer descriptions. Just like the exterior, non-causal descriptions of consciousness. No composer who ever wrote a good melody did it by following the rules like cookbook. You can create a piece of shit melody with the exact same characteristics. That was the point I was making.

If you want to get all irritated with a simple discussion - then fine, forget it. Everything you say is right, all the time. You're right. Absolutely.

@William said:

No composer who ever wrote a good melody did it by following the rules like cookbook.

Well. Very rarely composers write melodies having NOT an origin from elsewhere. Perhaps this is just what one means with "cookbooks".

Let's say you're John Williams taking Strauss melodies from "Death and Transfiguration" to make your Superman love theme "Can You Read My Mind."

Everything comes from somewhere else. Analysis after the fact can determine relationships but not determine "what makes a hit." Otherwise, we would all be out of work.

Clark

@clarkcontrol said:

Everything comes from somewhere else. Clark

From my perspective, every I do is derivative, right down to brushing my teeth.

In a nutshell, yes.

However, when one applies these rules (like a cookbook) Consciously to the creative process then the result will sound derivative. Sure, it looks good on paper but...

When one has totally absorbed the grammar the rules become Unconscious and creation can flow naturally, still governed by rules but not hindered by them. The work can then be transported beyond simple craftsmanship into art that transcends (or redefines) genre.

Perfect grammar will never guarantee poetry.

Clark

Great composers create their own grammArs. It takes some time for the audience to learn it. When other composer start using those new grammArs, what we have are cliches or even clones (of John Williams e.g.).

"Perfect grammar will never guarantee poetry. " - clarkcontrol

Yes, that's exactly what I meant to suggest. All the analysis of shapes of melodies in the world won't make a good one since you can do a bad one with the same shape. It is completely naive - in fact, laughable - to think otherwise. Though many forms of modern atonal composition allow composers to pretend this by doing this very thing - aping the outer shell of an idea. Not the inner reality, which is fundamentally mysterious.

In pathetically old fashioned music - like what I write - YOU CAN'T DO THIS AT ALL. Everybody realizes it, instantly, if you are a fake. But with modern music - you can get away with MURDER. [8o|]

"But with modern music - you can get away with MURDER."

Any examples?

It happens all the time.

I hear it on the bandstand at every gig I play. Rock, pop, country, even jazz. Sometimes I hear it from guys that have won Grammys. I hear it from me. Musicians stop thinking and listening and the life just leaves the music.

They're playing the right notes, mind you, but they switch on the "autopilot" and the spirit leaves and the bottom drops out of the energy, thus "aping the outer shell of an idea."

This makes it Very difficult to endure. As a free-lancer, I get the calls because I can carry people who do this, who believe that nobody can tell if they're distracted, thinking of what they have to do tomorrow...

But they DO know that with lesser sidemen surrounding them s**t falls apart. "Hmmm... why do things seem to groove so much better when Clark is on the gig?"

"Why does the singer sound so much more in tune? Could it be because I've hired Clark? Nah. A piano player really can't affect these things."

Yes I can.

It happens all the time.

A great majority of musicians who listen to this live music don't hear these subtleties. But they DO know when things are really clicking.

Think about it:

Some of the greatest studio musicians get famous for playing ridiculously simple rhythm parts on a Steely Dan recording, let's say. Why is that? What is so mysterious about playing quarter notes on a hihat?

"I'd do that too if I could get triple scale!" an ignorant musician would say.

Clark

Great post Clark. All very true. Those great session guys put magic into every pulse and know exactly what they're doing every moment.

I agree with that, Clark.

lgrohn, most - not all of course -of 20th century musical composition.

@clarkcontrol said:

It happens all the time.

I hear it on the bandstand at every gig I play. Rock, pop, country, even jazz. Sometimes I hear it from guys that have won Grammys. I hear it from me. Musicians stop thinking and listening and the life just leaves the music.

The question was about composing, not about playing... And I guess about atonal music!

(William: "In pathetically old fashioned music - like what I write - YOU CAN'T DO THIS AT ALL. Everybody realizes it, instantly, if you are a fake. But with modern music - you can get away with MURDER.")

So let me ask again: Any examples of this?

My post applies to all styles of music.

The things I mention above all deal with real-time composition. Improvisation is integral to the nature of those examples. Real time composition with very narrow parameters in order to illuminate in a more extreme way the nature of what I describe.

I felt that by using these extreme examples of quarter notes on a hihat, etc., we could eliminate (at least for a theoretical discussion) subjective qualifications as to what is art and what isn't.

In addition, my post also points out that the notes could be EXACTLY the same and merely the execution can invalidate or validate these intangible qualities we are talking about.

In regards to atonal music, your best bet is to go to any university and attend "Contemporary Music" concerts. More specifically, at the University of North Texas (my alma mater) that would be concerning the NOVA ensemble (atonal) or the CEMI (computer) music program. In general, any Ivory Tower is a perfect place for one to find substandard works from both faculty and graduate students that academically succeed on one level but fall short of expressing that magic.

Perhaps William may have had something specific in mind. My point is that we don't need to be specific because

It happens all the time.

Clark

@clarkcontrol said:

In regards to atonal music, your best bet is to go to any university and attend "Contemporary Music" concerts. More specifically, at the University of North Texas (my alma mater) that would be concerning the NOVA ensemble (atonal) or the CEMI (computer) music program. In general, any Ivory Tower is a perfect place for one to find substandard works from both faculty and graduate students that academically succeed on one level but fall short of expressing that magic.

Maybe the real problem is that in USA the only place (almost) where contemporary music is created and presented are just those semi-professional concerts. Maybe the commercial interests anad bad taste of the audience have spoiled contemporaty music in USA? What a pity. In Europe the situation is quite different, very much more positive.

I believe you are correct. Unfortunately, America does not support its arts very well at all. Government money has slowed to a trickle, so any music that is worth doing well requires a large market to drive its excellence and attract talent.

Film music to a certain degree is trending toward less traditional tonality, though it is diluted to a great extant, and so therefore it suffers in quality as well.

It would be nice to see a renaissance of sorts through more "Planet of the Apes" type scores. It seems that everything has become so middle of the road here. I'm glad the situation over by you is more fertile.

Clark